Character Movesets

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Jeffery Mewtamer
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Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:02 pm

This is another thread in the vein of "What would you want in a future Sonic game", but instead of trying for a catch all, let's instead focus on the question:

Given a general 3D Platformer game world, what kind of moves would you give each character and what kind of control set-up would you implement?

For myself, I'd like to stick to the "A to Jump, B to Attack" core controls from the Adventure Duology with the following specifics for characters I'd want included(ReplaceA and B with appropriate primary and secondary action buttons on the controller of choice, though I'm thinking a Gamecube controller since that is my favorite console for 3D Platformers alongside the N64):

Sonic:
A: Jump
A in the air: Homing Attack(can be chaned if each attack hits).
Tap B near rings: Light Dash
Hold B: Charge Energy
Release B with partial charge: Spindash
Release B at full charge: Light Attack
B in the Air: Bounce Attack.

Tails:
A: Jump
A while in air: Fly(Hold A to maintain current altitude, press repeatedly to ascend, release to descend)
B with no equipped weapon: Tails Spin attack(Hold for continous Tail Spin)
Hold B with Arm Cannon Equiped: Charge Shot
Repeatedly Tap B with Arm Cannon Equipped: Rapid Fire Shot.
B while in the air: Defaults to ArM Cannon if not equiped with another weapon that is usable while flying.
X: Cycle weapon(Though not sure what gadgets to include in Tails's arsenal beyond his Arm Cannon from Sonic Battle)

Knuckles:
A: Jump
A in the Air: Glide
B repeatedly: Punch, Punch, Uppercute/Tackle combo(Final attack of the sequence depends on range of closest target(Uppercut if close enough for it to contact, tackle otherwise)
Hold B: Charge Energy
Release B: Unleash charged energy in a small explosion(Nukes every thing non-Boss on screen at full power)
A while charging: Internalize charged energy(Booests power of Knuckles attacks temporarily with Partial Charge, Grants temporary invincibility if done with a full charge, but puts a block on charging energy again once the effects wear off).
A+B on soft ground: Dig

Amy:
A: Jump
A while running at speed: Hammer Jump
A when hitting a wall: Wall Jump
Tap B while wielding a Hammer: Hammer Strike
Hold B while wielding a Hammer: Charge Energy
Release B while wielding a hammer: Seismic Slam(Slams Hammer against ground to create a shockwave, at full charge it damages all on screen enemies and even hits airborne ones).
B while wielding a Hammer in the Air: Forward Somersault with Hammer extended).
Repeatedly Tap B while wielding a Bo Staff: Multi-strike Combo.
Spin the joystick and tap B: Spin Attack if the current weapon has one.
X: Cycle Weapons.

Shadow:
A: Jump
A in the Air: Homing Attack.
B near rings: Light Dash
Tap B: Chaos Spear
Hold B: Lock-on targets/Charge Energy
Release B: Chained Lighting Chaos Spear if charge is partial, Chaos Blast if charge is full.

Cream:
A: Jump
A in the Air: Fly(press repeatedly to ascend, Cream cannot hover at constant altitude)
B: Cheese Attack(Homing and with rapid fire capability, though Cheese has to return to Cream before the next volley).
Just so you know, I am blind.

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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Mamkute » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:57 am

I like the blending of character qualities from other games, to produce a cast of characters. I would also definitely play something like that. Sonic being pretty much identical to the adventure series (although somersaulting with just a brief press of B would make it more like Adventure 2) is great. Also Shadow being similar but with a more attacking influence. Tails outside of the machine, but not like Adventure 1's boring races would be pretty great as well. And the Amy and Knuckles mechanics seem fun.

I don't think I am good at coming up with mechanics, but I will say that these all seem very good, probably more for Cream, though, and a design for Rouge would add to it.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:07 am

Okay I'm seeing... I'm seeing... 'put all the upgrades on the X button'.
M'kay I got this.

Sonic:
A: Jump
A in the air: Jump Dash, Homing Attack at closest enemy if any are present, pausing in mid air between enemies. Tap A to chain homing attack. Hold A down to jump dash away from enemies.
Tap B in the air ONCE: Insta Shield, protecting Sonic from all damage for a split second as well as damaging any enemy caught in the shield
Tap B in the air repeatedly: Bounce, tap slowly to reach higher with each successive Bounce, tap quickly to narrow the distance
Tap B on the ground: basic Spin Attack, use while running to gain momentum
Hold B: Spin Dash on the spot (interrupts you if running, which is sometimes helpful)
Tap X near Rings: instant Light Dash, can be used while in Spin Attack/Spin Dash position without uncurling
Hold X: charge Light Speed Attack
Tap B near Rings while charging: Light Dash
Release X at full charge: Light Speed Attack
Tap Y: cycle through other X-button options, including Light Dash (the default), Flame Ring (select to use Fire Somersault/ leave unselected to avoid using somersault entirely), Magic Hand, Mystic Melody, Sonic Wind and other SA2 special attacks, etc.


Tails:
A: Jump
Tap A while in air: begin flying, control with analog stick, can hover in place until Tails gets tired (LONG air time)
Hold A while flying: ascend upwards
Tap B while flying: descend downwards slowly
Hold B while flying: descend downwards quickly
Tap B while on the ground: basic Spin Attack, same as Sonic
Hold B: Spin Dash
Tap X: Tails Attack with Rhythm Badge set as default gadget
Hold X: Rapid Tails Attack with Rhythm Badge set as default gadget
Tap X while flying: with Rhythm Badge set as default gadget, works similar to Sonic's Insta-Shield, minus with the invincibility and capable of being used repeatedly
Tap Y: cycle through Tails' gadgets and other equipment options; Arm Cannon, Dummy Ring Bombs, Chu2 Rockets, Boxing Glove gadget, Miles Electric, etc. All work with the same Tap/Hold/Tap While Flying set up.
Swim: same controls as flying, use when Tails is under water

Knuckles:
A: Jump
Tap and Hold A in the Air: Glide
Release A in the Air: drop out of Glide
Tap B while standing still: Punch
Tap B repeatedly: throw several punches, followed up with a distance-closing Dash Punch
Tap B while running: basic Spin Attack
Hold B: Spin Dash
Hold X: with Fighting Gloves set as default, charge Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack
Release X when fully charged: use Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack to destroy any group of enemies that would be vulnerable to Sonic's homing attack or light speed attack.
Release X before full charge: Hammer Punch, Knuckles strikes the ground creating an earthquake that damages surrounding enemies (including bosses)
Tap B while in the air: Drill Claw
A+B on the ground: Spiral Upper
Tap Y: cycle through Knuckles' gear and moves; Fighting Gloves, Shovel Claws (equip to dig by tapping X, without the need for Drill Claw), Sunglasses, Thunder Arrow, Sonic Battle inspired moves, etc.
Climb: Glide into walls, control with analog stick
Swim: same as Gliding, but Hold A while standing still to ascend towards the surface, Release A to sink


Looking at Sonic Advance and Sonic Heroes for Amy-
Amy:
A: Jump
B: swing Piko Piko Hammer
Tap B while running: Hammer Jump
Tap B while in the air: swing Piko Piko Hammer in mock Spin Attack form
Hold B while in the air: Jump Attack/Amy swings the Hammer around in a wide radius while falling at an angle
Hold B while in the air and pressing down on the analog stick: Amy slowly descends straight downwards while using Spin Hammer Attack
Hold B while on the ground: Amy swings the Hammer against the ground continously
Hold B and press up on the analog stick: Step Dash, Amy's version of the Super Peel Out, after revving up Release B and she leaps foreward to hit the ground running at top speed
Tap B when Amy leaps out of Step Dash: Head Slide Attack, Amy's version of the somersault, she falls on her face and slides across the ground, damaging enemies and sliding under obstacles.
Tap B when Amy hits the ground after Step Dash: Hip Attack, Amy uses Girl Bomber to turn around and dash backwards, damaging enemies
A+B: Amy swings the Hammer to create an uppercut
Tap X: Tornado Hammer, sends a Sonic Wind-style twister ricocheting around the field, damaging enemies and flipping objects over
Tap X while in the air: Amy uses Tornado Hammer to create a cyclone directly beneath her, damaging enemies below and catapulting her higher in the air
Hold X: stationary Spin Hammer Attack
Tap Y: cycle through Amy's gear, Tornado Hammer is default, equip Boxercise Gloves to throw Girl Jabs, equip Warrior's Feather to make Spin Hammer Attack function like Rapid Tails Attack, or use moves like Storming Heart or Amy Flash, etc.


Shadow: hybrid of Sonic and Knuckles controls, throws punches and kicks instead of using Spin Attack, but can Spin Dash, no Insta-Shield but can use hover scates to Glide like Knuckles (but skates don't work under water so can't Swim), can Light Dash and use Light Speed Attack but has a slower much charge time, can't use Sonic's Bounce and Shadow's Black Tornado is stationary instead of mobile, equip weapons, Chaos Control, and other special moves to X-button, defaults to Light Speed Attack.

Rouge: almost identical controls to Knuckles (minus the Spin Dash and Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack), but like Tails can hover in one spot for a lenghty amount of time by tapping A while in the air, and can equip a bunch of items similar to Tails' gadgets to X-button, such as Bat Cracker explosives, mines, Dummy Ring Bombs, Treasure Scope, Beauty Shock, Black Wave, Charm Ray etc. Defaults to Hip Drop (her answer to Knuckles' Hammer Punch).

Cream:
A: Jump
Tap and Hold A in the air: Fly until the A button is released or Cream gets tired (Short air time compared to Tails and Rouge)
Tap B: Chao Salom, Cheese homes in on the nearest enemy
Hold B: Chao Sentry, Cheese orbits Cream and deflects enemy attacks, on the ground or in the air
Hold B while running: Chao Dash, Cheese flies around Cream as she quickly reaches top speed and lifts off the ground with her ears (Cream's answer to Spin Dash and Step Dash, without actually revving up)
A+B: Chao Upper, Cheese flies straight up, destroying anything in from of Cream
Tap X: Chao Tornado, Cheese generates a twister that damages opponents and flips objects (Cream's version of Amy's Tornado Hammer)
Hold X: Omochao Kamikaze, summons an exploding Omochao that damages most of the enemies on the field
Tap Y: cycle through Cheese's other forms; Cheese can take on the appearance of Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy, allowing Cream to borrow their default X-button moves


Yes, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow can effectively do everything Sonic can do plus a bunch of other cool stuff. But Sonic is the only one with the true Insta-Shield, and as we all know Insta-Shield is massively OP, so it evens out.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:57 pm

*Reads over Ivo's post.*

I quite like your ideas. Maintains the relative simplicity of control provided by "A to jump/B to attack" while also allowing each character to show their full diversity of skills without having to memorize a lot of button combos. Also like the nods to Sonic Battle and some of the unique skills Advance 3's Partner system introduced(such a neat, but under utilized mechanic).

Based on Ivo's general idea, here's a control scheme for The Cyclone/Eggwalker:
A: Jump
Hold A while in air: Activate Boosters
Release A while in air: Deactivate boosters.
Tap B: fire primary cannon(no lock on).
Tap B repeatedly: Rapid fire primary cannon(no lock on).
Hold B: Lock on to multiple targets
Release B: rapid fire at locked on targets.
X: operates active secondary weapon(Default is Mega Laser)
tap X(Mega Laser selected): Equivalent to normal shot from primary Cannon.
Hold X(Mega Laser): Charge Mega Laser
Release X(Mega Laser): Fire Mega Laser(Power and duration dependant on Charge level, At full Charge, it's enough to vaporize most normal enemies(even armored ones) instantly and last long enough to sweep a full 360 degrees).
Y: Cycle secondary weapon(Default is Maga Laser, other include proximity, timed, and remote mines, a wide deam energy weapon, and a remote drone for accessing areas the main mech is too large to fit)
Possible controls for other secondary weapons:
Tap X(Mines): drop mine.
Hold x(Remote Mines): Detonate mines in order they were set.
Tap X(Remote Drone): Swap between Drone and primary mech POVs.
Drone has free anti-gravity with A/B used for vertical movement and control stick used for horizontal movement.
Pressing Y while controlling the Drone will exectue it's auto-return routine(needed for collecting items picked up by the drone.
If Drone is destroyed, a new one can be spawned from the main mech, but anything the drone was carrying is lost.

Also, since some characters could have a lot of alternate abilities, their should probably be a pause menu option to customize which abilities the player cycles through with Y.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:21 pm

That sounds like a good moveset for the Walker machines. I really like the idea of them being able to deploy a drone to explore the stage and investigate tight space; the Mecha Tails item from Tails Adventure works just like that and would be perfect for the Cyclone, and I suppose Eggman could use his floating TV thinger from Shadow the Hedgehog, or maybe an unwilling Orbot and Cubot?

Actually, I think Omega could benefit from having a moveset like that combined with the more standard controls the other characters use, since he's never really had a gameplay of his own.

Know what, I'll do sets for all of Team Dark-

Shadow:
A: Jump
A in the air: Jump Dash, Homing Attack at closest enemy (same as Sonic)
Tap B and Hold B in the air: Shadow activates his jet skates and hovers through the air, controls much like Knuckles' and Rouge's gliding, but can't be used under water
Release B: Shadow deactives his skates and falls into a three point landing
Press and Hold analog stick in the direction of the nearest wall while gliding: Wall Grab, Shadow's answer to climbing
Tap A while Wall Grabbing: Triangle Jump, Shadow jumps off his perch to latch onto any adjacent surface
Tap B while Wall Grabbing: Shadow continues to cling to the wall and spins in place, firing off a blast of exhaust from his jet skates to damage any enemies that approach his position
Release analog stick: Shadow drops out of Wall Grab
Tap B on the ground: Punch
Tap B repeatedly: Shadow executes a series of punches and kicks, followed up with a short range but powerful blast of exhaust from his jet skates
Hold B: Spin Dash
Tap X near Rings: instant Light Dash, can be used while in Spin Dash position without uncurling
Hold X: charge Light Speed Attack
Tap B near Rings while charging: Light Dash
Release X at full charge: Light Speed Attack
Tap Y: cycle through other X-button options, including Light Dash (the default), Flame Ring (select to use Fire Somersault/ leave unselected to avoid using somersault entirely), Black Tornado, guns maybe, Chaos Control, Chaos Blast, Chaos Spear and other SA2 special attacks, etc.

Rouge:
A: Jump
Tap A in the Air: Fly, Rouge hovers in place for a respectable amount of time
Hold A in the Air: Glide
Release A in the Air: stop Gliding, Tap A again to hover in place
Tap B while standing still: Kick
Tap B repeatedly: Roug executes a series of kicks, followed up with a high-reaching Jump Kick
Hold X: Hip Drop, Rouge generates a small earthquake to damage enemies, intensity varies depending on how long it's charged up
Tap B while in the air: Drill Dive
A+B on the ground: Screw Kick
Hold B: Secret Spear, Rouge revs up before executing her dash attack from Sonic Battle, which is basically a horizontal version of Drill Dive/Screw Kick. Rouge exits the move in a run, immediately reaching top speed.
Tap B while running: to use Secret Spear again
Tap Y: cycle through Rouge's other equipment and special moves; Treasure Scope, Black Wave, Charm Ray, Beauty Shock, Bat Crackers, Dummy Ring Bombs, etc.
Climb: Glide into walls, control with analog stick
Swim: same as Gliding, but Hold A while standing still to ascend towards the surface, Release A to sink

E-123 Omega:
A: Jump
Hold A while in air: activate Omega's thrusters to hover for short distances
Release A while in air: deactivate thrusters to drop straight down
Tap B in the air: strife the field with shots from Omega's cannons
Tap B on the ground: Punch
Tap B repeatedly: throw several punches, following up with an explosive combo that briefly surrounds Omega with fire
Hold and Release B: Rocket Boost, Omega's version of the peel out, Omega builds up steam before firing a huge blast of exhaust from his thrusters that launches him to top speed
A+B: Omega fires his machine guns in every direction, rotating 360 degrees to indiscriminately massacre as many enemies as possible
Tap X (Omega Laser selected): Equivalent to normal shot from primary Cannon on the Egg Walker/Cyclone.
Hold X (Omega Laser): charge Mega Laser
Release X (Omega Laser): fire Omega Laser (at full charge it exactly resembles Team Dark's Chaos Inferno from Sonic Heroes, vaporizes most enemies and can sweep a full 360 degrees).
Tap Y: cycle secondary weapons, Omega Laser default; Flame Throwers, Missile Launchers, Gatling guns, grenade launchers, melee weapons like drills, knuckle dusters, buzz saws, etc. For lock-on capabilities Omega could have an upgrade that gives him Gamma's laser sight attachment. If Omega has a drone it's probably something that resembles a robotic bird.

The Hook Beetle from LoZ Skyward Sword is an awesome example of how a remote controlled drone would work in a 3-D environment. Most of these movesets wouldn't be out of place in a 2-D sidescrolling game though; I wonder if it's possible to have one moveset fit both smoothly?
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:13 am

I would imagine side-scrolling would allow for moveset simplification in most cases(Dropping attacks that only make sense in 3D, being able to use up/down as a modifyer key like how the Spindash is handle in most, if not all sidescrolling Sonics, etc.)

Some thoughts for the Chaotix:

Espio:
Can run up walls and accross ceilings, and will continue to defy gravity even when he stops, but Jumping off a wall or the ceiling causes normal gravity to start affecting him.
A: Jump
A in Mid Air: Double Jump
Rapidly tap B: Throw Shuriken.
Hold B: Rev up Tornado Dash(Espio's version of the Spin Dash)
X: Default is to toggle Espio's Invisibility.
Y: Cycle other tricks in Espio's ninja tool kit(Including a substitution/decoy technique, smoke bombs, and a larger version of his Shuriken).

Charmy:
Instead of walking/running accross the ground, Charmy defaults to hovering at about head height of most Anthros and can hover indefinitely at a given altitude if he doesn't overuse abilities that eat stamina.
tap A: Charge straight up.
tap A + Control stick: Charge horizontally in direction held.
Hold A: slowly ascend
tap B: Charge straight down.
tap B near enemy: Stinger attack nearest enemy.
Hold B: Slowly descend
The above mid-air charges can be done repeatedly, but their range, speed, and force deteriorate with each dash done in quick succession and if Charmy's stamina is exhausted, he will drop to just above ground level to recover.
No idea for any abilities to assign to ZX and cycle with Y.
The basic idea is that Charmy has infinite air time and can basicaly move freely in all three directions, but gets panalized for abusing highspeed movement. Combined with his small size, he has the larest exploration capabilities aside from maybe the drones, but his flight isn't quite as OP as it was in Chaotix.

Vector:
A: Jump
A in air: Bubble Gum Balloon to Slow descent.
Tap B repeatedly: A punch, punch, Tail Whip combo.
Hold B: Charge his version of the spin dash, which should be Doughnut shaped like in Chaotix even if his modern form is more buff and a lot less lanky.
Again drawing a blank on what to use X/Y for.

Mighty:
A: Jump
A in air: His own version of Sonic's Homing Attack
Tap B repeatedly: A punching combo similar to Knuckles or Vector.
I'm thinking his default X ability should be his own variant of Knuckle's Max Fire Knuckle attack.
Perhaps to reflect his pacifist nature, most of his attacks will only stun/knock out organic enemies and the player is penalized for finishing off organics(can't think of a reason his pacifism would extend to not destroying robotic enemies though).

Ray(I know he's not technically part of the Chaotix in Segaverse, but he's grouped with them in the rchieverse and many a fanfic):
A: Jump
A in Air: Glide
No idea what to do with B/X/Y

Okay, drawing a blank on a lot of areas for the Chaotix, especially the ones that haven't made appearance since the Jump to 3-D.

.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:21 am

Some suggestions for the Chaotix:

Espio's moveset sounds solid; I'd add that his Leaf Swirl technique could be part of his invisibility shift, as in Sonic Heroes. Invisibility on it's own only has so many uses after all, like Sonic and Shadow's Light Dash it helps to have an additional offensive application.
I see Espio as having the same gameplay essentially as Knuckles and Rouge; Egg Quarters is the only treasure hunting stage that features a stealth element (avoiding the Egg Beetle), I could see Espio as having stages like that, and being able to play Knuckles' and Rouge's stages with superior stealth as his advantage. Espio also uses his 'ninja senses' to detect hidden objects in the Chaotix's missions in Sonic Heroes, so the treasure hunting gameplay would work pretty well for him. Espio's ability to run up walls would have the advantage over Knuckles' and Rouge's climbing, since he retains full mobility and can still attack enemies. However, not being able to glide would give Espio a handicap, and Knuckles and Rouge could still access areas he can't. For further balance, Espio can't swim and must navigate under water areas by wall running.
For that sort of thing to work though Espio would need his own answer to Drill Claw/Drill Dive. Since his attacks work by spinning on a vertical axis instead of tucking and rolling like other characters, it would be appropriate if Espio had a drilling technique of his own.
Tap B while in the air: Drill Whirl, Espio digs beneath him using his horn
A+B: Spiral Horn, Espio strikes straight above
The only other type of move I can think of for Espio is using his tongue to grab objects and damage enemies, as he does in Sonic the Fighters.

Your moveset for Charmy sounds perfect. I think Charmy would have stages that take full advantage of his complete freedom of movement, maybe with a level design like those used in games with extensive under water stages? Being able to move in three dimensions means the usual loops and mobius strips would need to be replaced by tunnels and flight guiding rings, constructs that work while ignoring gravity.
Attacking enemies with these controls sounds kind of tedious though. Charmy would need his own version of the Homing Attack or Light Speed Attack to dispatch clusters of enemies quickly. I could see the charging movement as working like Sonic's Jump Dash/Homing Attack, propelling Charmy in the desired direction if no enemies are present, but homing in on and damaging airborne foes.
Maybe, instead of taking a penality for abusing highspeed movement, Charmy can charge through the air as much as he wants, as long as he
A- rips through enemies
B- passes through flight-directing rings present in most Sonic games
If Charmy misses too many enemies or rings THEN he starts to loose stamina, but as long as he can chain them together he can dash indefinitely.
Some obstacles in his stages would probably require slowing down and applying puzzle solving skills however, so as not to reduce Charmy's gameplay to 'boost to win'.
Possible X button commands:
summoning mechanical flowers, first a closed flower then a second blossomed flower, which can then be used to teleport between two points, necessary to solve certain puzzles and making stage exploration safer
summoning flowers that protect Charmy or damage his enemies
pounding on Charmy's drum set to create sound-based shockwaves that damage enemies
'Sting Dash', Charmy charges foreward stinger first
Charmy makes a cloud of normal sized bees blitzkrieg the field
Charmy pulls out a giant flail and swings it around, much like how he would play when partnered with Heavy in Knuckles' Chaotix

Let me draw up new movesets for Vector, Mighty, and Ray-

Vector, like Espio, I see as having the same gameplay style as Knuckles, which most fits his moveset in Knuckles Chaotix and his missions in Sonic Heroes. Instead of treasure hunting though, I think Vector's more suited to moderately paced puzzle-solving and exploration based objectives; Amy's Sonic Adventure stages in other words:
A: Jump
A in the air: Vector does his own version of the Jump Dash, elbowing enemies that get in his way, but not homing in on them
B in the air: Vector descends slowly using a bubble gum balloon
B on the ground: instead of punching, Vector attacks with his jaws
Tap B repeatedly: Vector follows up a series of bites with a powerful roar, damaging enemies with his laryngitis
Tap B while running: Vector's Spin Attack; let's make it more special though. Instead of uncurling when he stops rolling, he stays in doughnut form, and can be rolled back and forth with the analog stick. Some puzzles will involve being able to alternate rolling Vector in either direction without loosing control. Jump to uncurl.
Hold B: Spin Dash
Tap X: Vector breathes fire
Hold X: Vector begins to take a massive breath, forcing the player to stand still for a moment
Release X: Vector unleashes a swarm of exploding bubble gum balloons from his mouth that fly in all directions
Tap Y: cycle through Vector's other special moves, which consist of singing songs from Sonic history using his Recital microphone. Other options follow the same theme; unleashing destructive music from his walkman, headphones, keyboard, synthesizer, etc.
Climb: Vector can climb just like Knuckles and Rouge by dashing into walls
Swim: he's a crocodile, so it would make sense for him to swim. Instead of mimicing Knuckles' swim controls though, Vector swims like Big the Cat when using the Life Belt upgrade, rising and falling by holding the A-button. Vector would also be able to hold his breath longer than any other character, giving him an advantage in stages that require extensive under water exploration.

I see Mighty as having a playstyle very close to Sonic and Shadow, putting him in their stages basically:
A: Jump
Tap A in the air: Jump Dash/Homing Attack
Jump, then Press and Hold analog stick in the direction of the nearest wall: Wall Grab, same as Shadow above
Tap A while Wall Grabbing: Wall Jump, Mighty's version has him jumping upwards, allowing him to grab a higher perch on the same wall, but making it harder to reach the opposite wall than Shadow's Triangle Jump
Tap B in the air: Power Stomp, Mighty comes crashing straight down, generating shockwaves (basically Sonic's stomping attack in post-Sonic Colors games)
Tap B while Wall Grabbing: delivers shockwaves along the wall to damage enemies
B: Spin Attack
Tap B while standing near an enemy or other object: Mighty lunges foreward and grabs the foe, hefting if over his head. When doing this he is usually immune to contact damage, unless the enemy or object is on fire or pulsing with electricity.
Tap B while holding object: Caber Toss, Mighty throws his burden away with tremendous force, much like the team moves in Chaotix, Heroes, and Advance 3
Jump and Tap B while holding object: Mighty Suplex, instead of throwing his enemy Mighty flips in the air and smashes it to the ground
Hold B: Spin Dash
Tap X: Spider-Mighty. Check this- Mighty pulls out a ring and creates a rubber band like force between himself and the nearest Ring in the stage, just like the partner feature in Knuckles' Chaotix. Hold X and back up to stretch the band and build up tension; then Release X to sling shot foreward, catapulting Mighty through the air over huge distances. If not interrupted by a wall or other obstacle, Tap X again while still in the air to stretch the band to another Ring, Tap A to automatically snap Mighty foreward and send him flying once more, Tap B to cancel the ring force and drop to the ground. This would allow Mighty to transverse stages like Spider-Man, swinging from one location to another using the Rings as anchor points. The move serves as Mighty's answer to the Light Dash, and while it can't be used to collect large amounts of Rings (it's disadvantage) it doesn't have the Light Dash's limitation of only working on trails of Rings as it can be used on individual Rings that are vast distances apart (Mighty's advantage over Sonic and Shadow's method).
Tap Y: ideas-
Knuckles' Chaotix had Grow and Shrink item boxes, give Mighty a size changing upgrade.
Pacifist Melody, Mighty plays a song on an invisible flute that causes all enemies on the field to fall asleep, even the mechanical ones. Which would be a lot like Chaos Control or Time Break in fact.
Red Vortex, Mighty's equivalent to Sonic Wind and Black Tornado, a stationary whirlwind that Mighty can maintain indefinitely, at the expense of limited mobility.
Frenzy Charge, Mighty dashes foreward at highspeed to automatically Caber Toss anything that gets in his way, at the expense of being difficult to control and leaving Mighty sluggish afterwards ('punishing' the player for using too much violence).
Armadillo Bomber, Mighty turns around and dashes backwards, slamming his carapace into enemies, knocking them away without damaging them.
Shell Slash, Mighty does a low-sweeping horizontal Spin Attack across the ground, his answer to the somersault.
Naturist Armor, the ironically named move where Mighty ditches his red carapace entirely, granting him increased speed but making it impossible to Spin Attack or Spin Dash, an extreme display of pacifism. Tap X again to revert to normal.
Wall Jump Cheat, Mighty whistles and a series of numbered pads like those in Sonic Adventure materializes on the appropriate surfaces. This allows Mighty to quickly wall jump to the proper destination without the player needing to negotiate the distance the normal way.

Thought: Sonic, Shadow, and Mighty all have a Karma Meter they can fill up to use different techniques, based on how aggressive the player wants to be. Mighty's stages reward the player most for nonaggressive actions, but this is tough to do correctly. Shadow's stages reward the player most for aggressive actions, but are always riskier than taking the peaceful route. Sonic's stages let the player do what ever they want, and Sonic's dialogue and mannerisms will shift depending on what route is taken (making the difference mostly cosmetic, not counting possible storyline significance). While Mighty and Shadow's personalities stay the same, Sonic can either become a soft-spoken All Loving Hero or a snarky Mascot with Attitude, and eventually teams up with one of them depending on which path was chosen.

Ray the Flying Squirrel.... yeah he's hard to come up with stuff for:
A: Jump
A in the air: Glide like Knuckles
Tap B in the air: an infinite double jump, Ray extends and flaps his membranes to push himself straight up every time B is tapped, effectively allowing Ray to reach the same height as Tails, Cream, or Charmy despite not being able to fly.
Tap B on the ground: Spin Attack
Tap B near enemy: Ray uses his prehensile tail to snatch the enemy and immediately toss them over his shoulder. Has a longer reach than Mighty's grab but the thrown enemy can't be aimed at anything.
Hold B: Spin Dash
Tap X: Ray spins across the ground or through the air on a vertical axis, grabbing any enemies he encounters with his tail and flinging them away.
Tap Y: other things-
Ray could summon a balloon to float through the air indefinitely like Charmy, at the expense of only moving very, very slowy.
Ray could summon a rocket that drags him through the stage at high speed, but with almost zero control over his motion.
Ray could create gusts of wind with his membranes to stun enemies.
Summon a roulette wheel that gives Ray a random power-up.
He could have bombs and other gadgets similar to Tails' arsenal.
Swim: Ray's controls work underwater, but are rather inelegant and slow compared to the other characters

Okay so, as far as gameplay styles go-

Speed based gameplay, focused on completing the stage as quickly as possible: Sonic, Shadow, Mighty
Flight based gameplay, slower pace and focus on exploration: Tails, Cream, Charmy
Treasure hunting stages, find hidden items with a radar: Knuckles, Rouge, Espio
Mission stages, puzzle solving and item gathering: Amy, Vector
Shooter stages, destroy as many enemies as possible: Cyclone, Egg Walker, Omega

We'd need one other character to have a complete game. Dr. Eggman outside the Egg Walker?
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:43 pm

I had forgotten that Espio's Invisibility had an associated offensive effect in Heroes. I also like the idea of Charmy only loosing stamina if his charges aren't used offensively. Also like your interpretation of Mighty as a speed character who's also quite powerful. I also feel a bit ashamed for not thinking of Vector's pearly whites as a means of attack, Especially since he's one of the few high-level predators in the cast(most being based on herbivores or insectivores and the idea of Tails biting one of Eggman's robots being comical at best).

Mechless Eggman is one idea for a 3rd Mission character(I'm guessing Ray would be starting on a fourth set), but it's hard to think of something for him short of giving him so many Gadgets that he might as well be in a mech.

Since we've already brought back arguably the most popular classic-only Hero-aligned Character, how about bringing back arguably the most popular classic-only Dark-aligned character?

Nack/Fang:
A: Jump
A in air: any ideas for a default double-jump-esque ability?
Tap B repeatedly: Shoot Fang's pop gun(perhaps needing to reload after six shots)
Hold B: his version of the spin dash if we give him one.
X: Summon his Hovercraft, which is overall less agile, but can reach areas Nack can't.
A while in Hovercraft: Activate boosters to gain altitude.
B while in Hovercraft: Nack can still fire his gun from his Hovercraft, but can't spindash.
X while in Hovercraft: Dismount.
Y: cycle Nack's other equipment(Including a sniper rifle(slower firing, but can accurately hit targets from far range, a tranquilizer for capturing resisting targets alive, probably other gadgets like Tails and Rouge deploy)

Since rings seem to double as Currency in Sonic's world and Nack is even more of a mercenary than the Chaotix, I could imagine the end of level ring Bonus having a larger impact on his Mission Ranking than other characters or him scoring points for looting the levels for valuables aside from the primary objective(i.e. if given a mission to break into a secure vault and retrieve a Chaos Emeral, Knuckles would ignore the other valuables, Rouge would grab any gemstones unless ordered to leave everything else alone, vector might be tempted to grab wads of cash, but would only do so if allowed by the client and if the facility belonged to Eggman or someone else on his **** list, and Nack would take as much cash, gold, and Jewels as he can carry even if his client forbade it).

This is fun, too bad, like many threads in the Sonic section, you and I are the only participants Ivo.

Edit:

This is an idea that wouldn't stop nagging me until I posted it.

Chaos:
A: Jump
A in air: Double Jump done by retracting his legs into his watery body followed by extending his upp body.
B: Stretches out an Arm to punch. Longer the B button is held, the further Chaos stretches his Arm before retracting it if He doesn't hit something.
B in Air: Does his own variant of the Bounce attack.
X: morphes into a puddle. In Puddle form, he can move faster and is more on a flat surface or while moving downhill, is immune to most physical attacks, and can fit through ground-level openings too small for most characters. However, he can't jump or attack in puddle form and can't climb up slopes that most wouldn't be bothered by. Puddle Chaos is also still vulnerable to things like electricity and heat great enough to flash boil water.
Y: Cycle other secondary abilities, including a Fake Chaos Emerald that lets him morph into a smaller version of Chaos 2(gaining greater strength and durability at the cost of speed and agility) and perhaps some ice/freezing powers.
Underwater controls:
Being a Water Elemental, Chaos is of course an excellent swimmer.
While stationary: left/Right on the control stick will have him pivot on a vertical axis and up/down will cause him to raise/sink.
Tap A: Does an underwater charge capable of breaking barriers and will home-in on the nearest in-range enemy.
Hold A: After the dash, Chaos will continue to swim forward at speed. while swimming, left/right will cause him to arc in the direction, while up/down will cause him to drift in that direction while swimming in a straight line.
Tap B while holding A: Underwater version of his stretch punch.
Hold B without A: Swims at a slower pace, useful for navigating underwater mazes.
X: since the puddle form would be kinda redundant underwater, the default switches to the Fake Chaos Emeral, which here morphes him into a smaller version of the Shark like Chaos 4, granting him greater top speed while swimming and a powerful bite attack while in the form.
Naturally, being made of water, Chaos doesn't need to come up for air, though swimming in non-water liquids or polluted water for too long will have similar effects to drowning.
Most of his X-button abilities should have an underwater variant, and in general, he should be above average to superlative in all areas when underwater.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:58 am

Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: This is fun, too bad, like many threads in the Sonic section, you and I are the only participants Ivo.
I wish this could be blamed on the forum currently being grossly inactive, however the same was largely true even two years ago. A pity, for which there is woefully little excuse. No amount of sophistry about the evolution of the CI community can change the fact that this is a website about Sonic Adventure 2.

You have an awesome moveset for Chaos, sounds like it would be a blast to play as. The only additions I could think of would be to include some of Knuckles-esque moves from SA2B's two-player mode, like Dig. Your moveset sounds like it would fit Chaos 0 from the first boss fight in SA quite well if the character model were made playable though. Or if Sonic Battle's awesome playable Chaos was translated into 3-D.

Some suggestions for Fang's basic controls:
A: a normal Jump without curling into a Spin Attack
Tap A in the air: Fang does a weaker version of the stomp attack
Hold A in air: Spring Jump, Fang coils his tail like a spring and bounces off the ground, gaining air with each bounce. Although it's continous like Sonic's Bounce, it works more like Amy's Hammer Jump in that it keeps him in the air for a long time and is as useful for crossing long distances as gaining height. There is actually a spring item in Fang's introductory game that lets Sonic and Tails be controlled like this, setting a good precedent. Fang's springy tail is also his only other notable attribute besides having a gun and an airbike.
Tap B in the air: Fang pauses mid air to fire off a round from his pop-gun.
Tap B on the ground: Fang throws a short punch.
Tap B repeatedly: Fang fires corks from his pop-gun.
Hold B: Fang pivots on his tail, kangaroo kicking anything in front of him and putting pressure against the ground behind him
Release B: Fang flicks his tail and launches off the spot in a flying drop kick similar to Rouge's Secret Spear.

I'm thinking the pop-gun has infinite ammo, but any other weapons he uses like a sniper rifle or rocket launcher need to be reloaded frequently to prevent them from over shadowing his core techniques. I kinda see the pop-gun as being a longer range version of Amy's Piko Piko Hammer (in Sonic the Fighters, that's almost literally how their weapons feel when you play as them).
Using the Marvelous Queen as his default X-button command is a good call. Fang is mostly perceived as being a slow character, the hovercraft can give him some speedy gameplay without hurting that reputation.
In-game ugrades could mostly be things that modify the Marvelous Queen; a drill attachment to mimic Knuckles' dig, a cannon to mimic the walker mechs, a giant spring because it's expected, etc.

Hmmm. If Amy, Vector, and Fang have the same type of mission gameplay, what would be their balancing factors? Amy is a speed character so she would naturally be the fastest, Vector is obviously the strongest; where does that leave Fang? Maybe we should draw up, like, a stat chart to address this sort of thing. Maybe Speed, Power, Stamina, Swim, and Stealth? That's how the Chao Karate stats work.

Also, your idea about the treasure hunters getting different rank bonuses based on how greedy they are reminds me of the karma meter suggested for Sonic/Shadow/Mighty earlier. This could also apply to the other trios.
Amy- Hero, Fang- Dark, Vector- open ended because his personal values are a little mixed
Knuckles- Hero, Rouge- Dark, Espio- open ended because ninjas are quiet and can't be trusted
Tails- Hero, Cream- um..., Charmy- open ended because he's the third member of the Chaotix
Tails- Hero, Eggman- Dark, Omega- open ended because he's a patricidal psychopath who only targets bad guys
Maybe that doesn't work out :P
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:03 pm

Yeah, I noticed that most of the trios we so far constructed for each play type could be sorta divided into Hero/Dark/Wildcard alignments, but the Fly trio is a bit unbalanced what with having two candidates for Hero and no good candidate for Dark.

If we brought in the Babylon Rogues, Wave might fit the bill for a Dark Flyer(Jet being another Speed Character and Storm being Power(though not sure which play style would fit him since I haven't played the Riders games).

Honestly, speaking of balance, despite it being a concept that was only spelled out for Heroes, it's almost shocking how easy it is to divide other SegaSonic characters into trios of Run/Fly/Power.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:02 am

Okay some stats-

Sonic
Alignment: Hero trending toward Neutral
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Runner
Scale of one to ten, with one being the weakest, ten being the strongest, and five being average:
Speed - 10
Power - 6
Stealth (in other words being able to evade enemy attacks, a flying character's biggest advantage) - 3
Stamina - 5
Swim - 2

Tails
Alignment: firm Hero
Type: Fly
Gameplay: 'Chaser' (still at a loss about whether to consider flying characters as a distinct playstyle or not)
Speed - 8
Power - 2
Stealth - 9
Stamina - 4
Swim - 7

Knuckles
Alignment: Hero trending toward Neutral
Type: Power
Gameplay: Treasure hunter
Speed - 6
Power - 10
Stealth - 3
Stamina - 7
Swim - 8

Amy
Alignment: firm Hero
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 8
Power - 7
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 5
Swim - 3

Cream
Alignment: firm Hero
Type: Fly
Gameplay: 'Chaser'
Speed - 6
Power - 6
Stealth - 8
Stamina - 3
Swim - 6

Shadow
Alignment: firm Dark
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Runner
Speed - 10
Power - 7
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 4
Swim - 2

Rouge
Alignment: Dark trending towards Neutral
Type: Fly
Gameplay: Treasure hunter
Speed - 5
Power - 8
Stealth - 7
Stamina - 3
Swim - 8

Omega
Alignment: firm Dark
Type: Power
Gameplay: Shooter
Speed - 4
Power - 10
Stealth - 1
Stamina - 10
Swim - 1

The Cyclone
-
-
Gameplay: Shooter
Speed - 5
Power - 9
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 7
Swim - 9

The Egg Walker
-
-
Gameplay: Shooter
Speed - 4
Power - 9
Stealth - 7
Stamina - 8
Swim - 4

Mighty
Alignment: firm Hero
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Runner
Speed - 9
Power - 8
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 6
Swim - 2

Vector
Alignment: Neutral trending towards Hero
Type: Power
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 5
Power - 9
Stealth - 1
Stamina - 8
Swim - 9

Espio
Alignment: firm Neutral
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Treasure hunter
Speed - 8
Power - 4
Stealth - 9
Stamina - 5
Swim - 5

Charmy
Alignment: Neutral trending toward Hero
Type: Fly
Gameplay: 'Chaser'
Speed - 7
Power - 3
Stealth - 10
Stamina - 2
Swim - 1

>Charmy never lets Espio forget about his superior stealth skills

Ray
Alignment: Hero trending toward Neutral
Type: Fly
Gameplay: 'Chaser'? Mission?
Speed - 6
Power - 5
Stealth - 7
Stamina - 7
Swim - 6

Fang
Alignment: firm Dark
Type: Fly?
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 4
Power - 6
Stealth - 8
Stamina - 6
Swim - 4

Chaos
Alignment: Neutral trending towards Dark
Type: Power
Gameplay: Treasure hunter
Speed - 2
Power - 9
Stealth - 8
Stamina - 6
Swim - 10

I think we need more than just four stats though, but it's hard to quantify the balancing factors.
Last edited by Ivogoji on Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:17 pm

Yeah, Balance is a tricky business, especially if you want to avoid characters feeling like clones of each other like in SA2(which didn't suffer too badly since clones only came in pairs and had completely different levels) and Heroes(which suffered horribly due to clone syndrome making it feel like you have to play the whole game 4 times just to unlock the final boss). Hell, Sonic Advance 2 was so unbalanced that character selection was as good as a difficulty setting for new players(Cream being super Easy due to how OP Cheese was, Tails being Easy due to how his long airtime helped with navigating over bottomless pits, Knuckles being Medium since gliding is useful, but not as useful as flight or cheese, and Sonic being hard since he has to rely on the core gameplay to win) Too bad you have to play the game on hard to unlock the other characters(and beat one of the most infamous bosses in any Sonic game to unlock Knuckles) I don't count Amy in the character = difficulty equation since by the time you unlock Amy legitimately, you are good enough at the game that the only place the unbalancing still matters is that Cream can trash most bosses in a fraction of the time thanks to how OP Cheese is.

That said, I'd say some unbalancing would be acceptable in single player modes, and would be less important if each character was given their own set of levels to complete(though it would be interesting to try playing levels with characters other than the one the level was designed for).

Though looking over the play styles we've discussed thus far:
-Our 3 Runners include two pure speed characters and one hybrid speed/Power character whose abilities differ primarily in combat style and how they deal with areas that require more than simple jumps and running. In theory, any level one can beat, all three could beat though enemy heavy levels might give Sonic more trouble, and their might be some gaps/ring paths that would present a challenge to Mighty that might necessitate his Jump Pad Cheat(though to avoid players abusing, perhaps Mighty's A-rank requirements should include a limit on how often he uses the cheat, perhaps based on the number of times required to make the level completable).
-Our 3 confirmed Chasers and potential fourth are all fly-type characters who differ mainly in combat style and how they fly. Charmy's infinite air time probably means there are gaps he can pass that others would need the benefit of Dash rings to cross. Also, I imagine Chamy's combat style would give him the advantage against flying hoardes of enemies while Tails is probably better suited to ground combat while Cheese might be versatile enough to deal with both aerial and ground assaults well.
-Knuckles and Rouge could both be called Fly/Power hybrids, and Espio ditches the more traditional acrobatics of the Speed type for more blatant defiance of Gravity, and Chaos is arguably the best argument for promoting swim from a Chao stat/type to a full Character type. All four specialize in exploration and there are few places they can't reach that other characters can. Knuckles and Rouge are very similar in core abilities and would likely handle very similar in combat unless the player decides to pull out their specials while Espio and Chaos have very different combat styles from both. Chaos definately has an advantage underwater while Espio is at a disadvantage there. Due to his abysmal speed, Chaos would probably be the worst choice for most above water missions, but would be a great fit for underwater levels, even ones where the water is polluted or not actually water as while Knuckles's air necklace would continue to work, Chaos would still have a maneuverability advantage.
-Our mission characters are easily the most diverse group, what with it containing a Speed character, a Power character, a Character that defies easy classification, and the possible fourth being a fly character. Out of any play-style thus far mentioned, this is where we would be most likely to run into problems of "if we have shared missions accross characters, character-specific talents won't be showcased" and "if we give each character missions designed with their talents in mind, they might be unwinnable if we let players attempt the missions with other characters".
-Balancing Shooting levels shouldn't be a problem as this group of characters comes closest to being clones accross the board(though I suppose it wouldn't be out of character to give Eggman or Tails either one levels with objectives that require the pilot to exit his Mech, which naturally wouldn't translate well to Omega(even if you subscribe to the theory that Omega is piloted by the same flicky that was at the heart of Gamma)

Speaking of stats, I can't help thinking that your stealth stat combines a lot of actual stealth(ability to avoid detection) with Agility(ability to quickly change direction, an important aspect of dodging). Also, if we did separate stat sheets for underwater, while most characters would logically take a hit for speed, Chaos should definitely have a 10 for speed while in the water.

Speaking of underwater, do you think poor to non-existent swimming ability should be a common feature of Speed characters or mainly an Sonic/Espio thing? Perhaps to help balance out his air superiority compared to other flyers, perhaps Charmy should lack the ability to swim and perhaps even need an upgrade to survive being drenched? I find myself imagining Chamy locked in something resembling an oversized hamster ball that is water tight and has an air tank so Charmy can stay underwater indefinately once he gets the upgrade, but is limited to rolling around, will tend to roll downhill if he tries to stay stationary and needs to build up momentum to scale steep inclines(perhaps needing underwater dash panels to get pass places where Tails or Cream could simply swim.

As for Nack, the one time I saw him put on a team of three in a fanfic, he was in the Speed role. Then again, his team mates were Bean and Bark and they were teamed-up for an Extreme Gear race, so his lack of natural speed didn't really come into play(His team still came in dead last though). Then again, that fanfic was a crossover of SegaSonic, ArchieSonic, and Classic Megaman set in a shared mega-crossover setting that stomps all over canon of every franchise that gets featured(The shared Mega Crossover setting in question being The Infinite Loops, the specific branch being published under the title Mega Loops on ff.net, and the specific chapter being one of the Mega Sonic chapters). Honestly, Fang would probably be hurt the most of the characters we've gone into detail with if put into a no equipment challenge. Okay, if you count a character's default shoes as equipment, Sonic and Shadow might be hurt more(what with the bits about Sonic's shoes being super tough to compensate for Sonic lacking the required secondary super power of having feet that can handle the friction of running so fast and Shadow's rocket skates being the bulk of his speed).

Without Equipment:
Sonic and Shadow lose light dash/attack and probably other specials, but as long as they keep their default shoes, most of their speed and acrobatics stay in-tact.
Shadow's Chaos powers are greatly reduced without access to a Chaos Emerald, though the most basic of them don't require such a power source.
Tails would lose most of his specials and might take a hit on air speed/time, but his natural abilities aren't all that bad.
Amy would lose her primary means of attack, but still has enough natural ability to compensate, and could probably fall back on a more fisticuffs oriented combat style without her hammer.
Knuckles and Rouge would lose the ability to Dig and most of their specials, but are still capable fighters without their equipment.
Unless you count Cheese as Equipment, Cream might be mostly unaffected.
Espio would lose access to his Ninja gear, but many of his most useful abilities are innate.
Vector would lose most of his specials, but his core abilities still make him a force to be reckoned with.
Charmy's greatest strength are natural abilities, and aside from the above suggestion for Charmy's interactions with Water, I can't think of much he would lose being stripped of his equipment.
Haven't really deined where Mighty's natural abilities end and ones that rely on upgrades begin and the same goes for Ray, but I doubt either would be render harmless by a no equipment challenge..
Omega and the Mechs are technically all equipment, but I guess we could let them retain their primary weapon, basic armor, and basic locomotion components.
Chaos would lose his transformations that rely on a Chaos Emerald(real or fake) and probably the suggested ICe powers, but Chaos 0 isn't a push over(yes, Chaos 0 is the easiest boss fight in SA1, but he was completely untouchable prior to sonic showing up, and since that fight precedes even Sonic's first action stage or being introduced to the Adventure Fields, it had to be easy.)
Nack however, loses all of his specials, his primary weapon, and is probably the weakest character mentioned in a drawl and dirty tricks will only go so far when fighting a superior opponent when you have a reputation of using dirty tricks.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:10 am

I added a Swim stat to my previous post and revised a couple of the numbers.

Alright so the two fastest characters we have are Sonic and Shadow, with Mighty coming up just behind them.
The most powerful two are Knuckles and Omega, with Chaos, Vector, and the walkers all in second place.
With Stealth being the measure for a how well a flying character can fly, Charmy comes out on top, followed by Tails, Cream, Rouge, and Ray.
Using Stealth to measure non-flying characters' evasive skills and agility, naturally Espio is in the lead, followed by Rouge and Fang.
Omega has the honor of being the character with the most Stamina, with Vector and the walkers coming up behind him.
Chaos appropriately has the highest Swim stat, with Vector coming in second, Knuckles and Rouge in third, and Tails in fourth.

An idea crossed my mind to give the walker mechs some believable underwater gameplay- have them transform into aquatic modes when entering water. The Cyclone transforms into a bulkier version of the Sea Fox from Tails Adventure and Sonic Triple Trouble, with the legs retracting and a drill sprouting from the nose of the vehicle. The drill can be used offensively and much of the Cyclone's regular arsenal is intact. The Egg Walker simply converts to hovercraft mode and gains a glass dome over the cockbit, allowing Eggman to cruise around much like Fang's hoverbike controls.
Your idea for Charmy's underwater controls sound excellent. I agree with your other points too.
I'm seeing all Speed-type characters as having zero swimming ability, with Espio being the least encumbered since he can scale sheer surfaces.
The transformed Cyclone would be the fastest shooter underwater, the Eggmobile would be manageable, while Omega is reduced to walking ponderously at the floor of the stage, with limited jumping ability and no hover. However, he makes up for this severe handicap with one unique quality- Omega has no need for air and can stay submerged indefinitely.
It would make sense that Chaos has no need for oxygen too, but since he's playable in SA2B's two player mode stages I don't know if that game ruled out the possibility or not. If Chaos does have to come up for air in that game for some reason, it would feel inconsistent to give him this ability.

Don't really get the point of a no equipment challenge; Amy's Piko Piko Hammer and Fang's popgun are as much pieces of them as Sonic's Spin Dash or Knuckles' Glide are parts of their own character. I can see what you mean about the limitations some of the characters face when stripped to their barebones skillset though, and how big an advantage some of the others have in comparison. Which raises a question: how much do we want this hypothetical game to be about giving the Sonic cast logical movesets that aptly reflects each charcter, and how much are we talking customization and including as many possible options as we can imagine?

At any rate, I'm going come back later with more detailed special moves and X-button commands for the characters we have so far. Sonic is looking particularly lackluster compared to rest of the ensemble, he could be beefed up by adding some of the original techniques seen in games like Secret Rings and Unleashed.

We should also draw up some movesets for Bean and Bark now that you've mentioned them. Personally I always fancied Bean to be a speed type character. Yes he's a duck, but he can't really fly in Sonic the Fighters and all of his attacks that aren't bomb related depend on lightning fast movement. He's about as fast as Sonic in the game actually.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:27 am

Between not having anyone to play with on a regular basis and no option to play against the computer, I never did much of SA2's 2P mode, so I don't know if any of the 2P treasure hunting levels even had water. Then again, even in Single player, Aquatic Mine, Secret Parts of Death Chamber, and Cannon's Core 4 are the only places I can think of where drowning is likely(which might be why the Air Necklace is a Knuckles exclusive item).

Honestly, some of the upgrades in the Sonic Adventure Duology seem rather contrived, especially in SA2(why did Sonic and Knuckles lose upgrades from SA1 for example(Tails is excusable since he isn't fully playable outside the Cyclone and does get Infinite fly time even if maximum altitude above launch point is reduced), or how about each character having an upgrade for the sole purpose of breaking metal crates or accessing side areas of a level that exist primarily for the standard mission that makes the least sense.

For the most part, I'd say A, B, and default X actions should probably either be innate abilities, related to the character's default weapon(if they use one) or rely on a piece of equipment that is intrinsically tied to the character's history. Also, if there are any abilities that are locked at the beginning of the game, I'd say the unlocking of said ability should probably be plot relevant(For example, if the Cyclone starts out being land-locked, instead of finding a convenient upgrade the first time he has to go underwater, Tails decides to install components necessary for the Amphibious mode upon realizing he'll need the cyclone to navigate some partially submerged ruins.

At this point, I'd say any ability shown in SA1/2's single player mode or Heroes that doesn't require team mates should probably be promoted to either Innate ability or only requires the character's default gear.

Edit:
As for Bean and Bark, I know very little of either character, so I'll leave most of their hypothetical modern revival to others, but some ideas that came to mind regarding Bean:

Casting him as a Speed Character, his double jump should definitely feature him flapping his wings for eaxtra height and/or distance, though perhaps he should be barred from true flight(possible explanations for a Duck that can't fly might include Bean being somewhat overweight(common among real world ducks that are fed by humans), being weighed down by all those bombs, or having cinged his feathers one to many times from not getting away from an explosion in time).
Bombs should definitely be in his arsenal somewhere(they don't call him the Dynamite for nothing)
Keeping with the trend of Speed characters being poor swimmers, Bean should be crap underwater, but given that ducks are aquatic birds, I think it would be appropriate to give him some unique surface behavior. Being a Duck, bean is naturally buoyant, so where other speed characters have to run at speed to avoid sinking, Bean is capable of standing stationary on water(or at least of sitting on the surface and surface swimming. In fact, I could see his being so buoyant that he needs to attach iron weights to his feet in order to sink(ala Link and the Iron Boots from Ocarina of Time). While this also lets him quickly surface if low on air by removing the weights and floating to the surface, it also causes him to be slowed the most of any speed character when navigating the floor of a flooded room(if other speed characters drop to a 5 when running under water, Bean's speed might drop to being on par with Chaos on land).

Speaking of underwater behavior, in addition to not being able to swim and being slowed due to water offering more resistance than air, Shadow's rocket skates should be render inoperable underwater just like Omega and the Mech Walkers's boosters.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:25 pm

Bean:
A: Jump; unlike most other characters, Bean's jump isn't an attack, like Amy he just jumps in the air
A in the air: Double Jump, can gain the most height of any Speed character
Tap B in the air: Bean lobs a cartoonish bomb
Tap B on the ground: Bean pecks at anything in front of him with his bill
Tap B repeatedly: Bean delivers a flurry of pecks, dashing along the ground like Knuckles' Dash Punch. However, Bean's 'Dash Peck' doesn't stop and he can keep charging forward as long as B is being tapped. This is Bean's answer to the Spin Dash/Super Peel Out.
Hold B: Bean prepares to pitch one of his bombs, and set of crosshairs appears on the ground in front of him (just like when Big the Cat is casting his fishing line). Move the crosshairs with the Analog stick to determine where Bean will throw the bomb, then Release B to toss the explosive. Bean's bombs can be thrown long distances and when they explode they create a large shockwave comparable to Knuckles' Hammer Fist, Rouge's Hip Drop, and the Power characters combo attacks in Sonic Heroes.
X: Bean's default command is to launch a missile that he rides around on top of, allowing him to cross large gaps, and exploding to damage surrounding enemies upon landing. The missile is difficult to control and will explode if it makes contact with any obstacle, but it can be used pretty much anywhere, unlike Light Speed Dash.
Tap Y: cycle through other X-button options, mostly different kinds of explosives, including a homing bomb, a stationary time bomb, a brace of bombs that shower down on enemies in a wide spread, napalm explosives, paralyzing electric bombs, missiles that fly vertically instead of horizontally, etc.
Swim: As you suggested, Bean can splash about on the surface of water with no fear of sinking and easily cross water obstacles. However, he must equip cartoonish anvils with the Y-button and Tap X to sink under water, where his movement is very limited as long as he has the anvils equipped, simiarly to Omega's ponderous under water controls. Bean can immediately surface by taking off the anvils, but can't put them back on until he's all the way to the top.

Bark:
A: a very, very low Jump with no Spin Attack
A in the air: Bark strikes the ground beneath him with both fists
B in the air: Bark lashes out at the air around him with his long arms
B in the air next to a wall: Wall Grab
B on the ground: Bark throws a punch with significant reach
Tap B repeatedly: Bark swipes back and forth while moving forward slowly, following this up with a slap to the ground that generates shockwaves
Hold B: Bark starts to wind up for a massive punch, rotating his arm like a pinwheel
Release B: Bark lets loose a wild haymaker that lurches his entire body across the ground for a considerable distance; this is Bark's compromise between the Dash Punch and Spin Dash
Tap X: Default action is to unleash a powerful roar that knocks back most enemies
Hold X: Bark takes in a huge breath
Release X: Bark unleashes an even more powerful roar accompanied by a blast of cold air that can put out fires and freeze enemies in place
Tap Y: cycle through Bark's other special moves, which mostly consist of wrestling techniques.
For example, Bark can grap the opponent and litterally shake the rings out of them, allowing Bark to gather rings quickly.
Another move would have Bark flattening the opponent like a pancake, leaving them to comically flop around before resuming their normal shape.
Bark could also have a move that lets him grab and throw enemies into other enemies or to break obstacles.
If he had other special powers, they would presumably be ice-themed.
Climb: after Wall Grabbing, Bark can scale surfaces much like Knuckles and Vector. Because Bark's jump is so low, he depends greatly on Climbing to access most areas.
Swim: Descend under water by Holding A, ascend by releasing A. Like Bean, Bark swims very well on the surface of the water and makes good speed when crossing water obstacles, but is less graceful when submerged. His ability to ascend and descend under water makes for an improvement over his pitiful Jumping ability on land however, and Bark generally outpaces other characters in water stages.

Bean would play a lot like Amy but with bombs instead of the Piko Piko Hammer. Bark would play a lot like your moveset for Chaos, if a bit more physical.

Bean would have Speed based gameplay like Sonic and Shadow, while Bark would work best in Mission based gameplay as we suggested for Amy and Vector.

Bean
Alignment: firm Neutral
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Runner
Speed - 8
Power - 7
Stealth - 3
Stamina - 4
Swim - 6

Bark
Alignment: firm Neutral
Type: Power
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 2
Power - 10
Stealth - 1
Stamina - 7
Swim - 9

Runners (all Speed type): Sonic, Shadow, Mighty, Bean
Chasers (all Fly type): Tails, Cream, Charmy, and Ray I suppose
Treasure Hunters (mixed): Knuckles (P), Rouge (F), Espio (S), Chaos (P)
Mission (mixed): Amy (S), Fang (?), Vector (P), Bark (P)
Shooter: Cyclone, Egg Walker, Omega (P)
six speed types
five power types
five fly types
two none applicables
and Fang, who doesn't fit the type system, and additionally could fit comfortably in any of the gameplay styles
The 'Chaser' characters lack a Dark alignment character and if Ray is dropped they come up short compared to Runners and Treasure hunters. The only serious solution I can think of is to include Eggman piloting the Eggmobile in none-walker mode as another option, which would work okay given that racing Eggman's hovercraft is Tails' final challenge in Sonic Adventure.
We definitely need more Shooter characters. Chaos Gamma from Sonic Battle would be the most suitable candidate, unless we relocated Fang to the Shooter gameplay and produced a new Mission character.
Looking at other characters we could suggest movesets for and all the potential types:
Speed Types: Sonic, Shadow, Amy, Espio, Mighty, Bean, Blaze the Cat, Jet the Hawk, Metal Sonic
Fly Types: Tails, Rouge, Cream, Charmy, Ray, Silver the Hedgehog, Wave the Swallow, Tails Doll
Power Types: Knuckles, Omega, Chaos, Vector, Bark, Chaos Gamma, Big the Cat, Storm the Albatross, Metal Knuckles
Undefined: Fang, the Cyclone, the Egg Walker, the Eggmobile
Sonic Riders/Sonic Riders Zero Gravity provides the Babylon Rogues types and pegs Blaze and Silver as Speed and Flight type characters respectively. 'Team Metal's types would be intuitive enough. Taking these potential additions into account brings us up to nine Speed types, nine Power types, and eight fly types.
Making Fang a Fly type would round out the table and make all the numbers equal, but that seems like a stretch doesn't it?
I can think of one more possible Fly type though; Honey the Cat Sonic the Fighters, who has little angel wings on her back and a build generally similar to Rouge. Honey would also fill out the gap created by adding Bean and Bark to the line up, since most of the other additions conveniently come in trios.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:17 am

If a game was made incorporating all of these ideas, I wonder if it would set a record for largest playable cast in a Platformer. Then again, Sonic is one of the few franchises that has Platformer as its primary genre I can think of that has multiple playable characters as a franchise staple.

Silver as a fly character seems a bit counter intuitive, but I guess it makes sense with Telekinesis being his signature ability. Now I'm imagining Silver using his Telekinesis to not only run on water like the fastest speed characters can do at top speed, but running on air when he runs off a ledge.

As for Blaze, While I've played both Rush and Rush Adventure and used Blaze almost exclusively in the latter, the only thing I can think of to distinguish her from other speed characters is fire immunity and the ability to slowly descend by holding A while in their air(perhaps even making it a weaker version of Knuckles's glide).
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Pufflehugs » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:23 pm

Chao Walkers (Hero, Neutral and Dark versions)
A: Jump
A in the Air: Hover
B in the Air: Lunge Forward
B: Laser Blaster
Hold B: Charges Laser
Release B: Fires Charged Laser
X: Fire Homing Rocket
Y: Fire Rocket Launcher

The Rockets should be items you can pick up and fire. You should start with 10/15.

Hero Chao Walker
Alignment: firm Hero
Type: Fly?
Gameplay: Shooter
Speed - 5
Power - 5
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 9
Swim - 0

Neutral Chao Walker
Alignment: firm Neutral
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Shooter
Speed - 9
Power - 5
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 5
Swim - 0

Dark Chao Walker
Alignment: firm Dark
Type: Power
Gameplay: Shooter
Speed - 5
Power - 9
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 5
Swim - 0
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:44 pm

Did not think to include the Chao Walkers in this discussion. Good suggestions for their stats and classes.

This reminds me however- we've taken Chaos into account, and modified Amy's moveset, but we haven't included Tikal or Metal Sonic yet, or Big the Cat. The lack of Chaser-type/Flying characters is also an issue since it slightly upsets our hypothetical game's balance.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Pufflehugs » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:35 pm

I was considering putting Big and Tikal in my first post, but it would have broken the balance of the walkers and there isn't much you can do with those two (especially Tikal, who plays pretty much like Knuckles in SA2 Battle Mode). I'll do Metal though.

A: Jump
Hold A in the Air: Glide
Release A in the Air: Stop Gliding
B: Spin Dash
Hold B: Charge Dash
X: Chest Beam
Y: Artificial Insta-Shield (bigger than Insta-Shield, but only protects and doesn't kill enemies)

Metal Sonic
Alignment: firm Dark
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Runner
Speed - 9
Power - 7
Stealth - 0
Stamina - 5
Swim - 0
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Pufflehugs » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:03 pm

Eh, I'll attempt Big and Tikal.

Big the Cat
A: Jump
B: Grab (picks something up)
B while grabbing something: Throw (throws the thing)
X: Lure Attack
Y: Cast Fishing Rod (can grab lighter stuff from far away)

Tikal the Echidna
A: Jump
A while in the air: Glide (can't climb, though)
B: Spear Jab (a Knuckles Tribe spear just so she can have something unique)
Hold B: Spear Harpoon (works like the Hookshot in 3D Zelda games)
X: Rock Throw (throws a small rock, not the big ones Knuckles throws in Sonic Battle)
Y: Chao Call (calls a Chao with a random appearance that will defend her)
A+B on soft ground: Dig

Big the Cat
Alignment: Neutral trending towards Hero
Type: Power
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 2
Power - 10
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 7
Swim - 5

Tikal the Echidna
Alignment: firm Hero
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Treasure Hunter
Speed - 7
Power - 3
Stealth - 6
Stamina - 5
Swim - 3
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:16 pm

I'm not sure the spear fits Tikal, what with her being the token pacifist of a warrior tribe.

Given that Tikal is a spirit, she should probably have some form of intangibility(And in fact, SA1 actually implies that she has trouble projecting her true form in the physical world(Normally appearing as a ball of light), so maybe intangible should be her default state with taking corporeal form being something that she can only do for limited periods but is required for her to interact with some objects). Of course, how do we incorporate such an ability in a non-gamebreaking way. At the very least, I'd suggest that energy attacks hurt her even while intangible and perhaps she should expend a ring for every second she spends outside of her default state or perhaps have her phase shift powered by a meter similar to the one that Modern Sonic uses for boosting.
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Pufflehugs » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:39 am

Sure, let's go with that. I really wanna keep the hookshot idea in some way, though. Maybe a hookshot made of stone? Anyway, I had this idea where Heavy and Bomb have their own mission levels where they work together as two separate characters kept together with the ring rope system from Chaotix (but there is no limit in distance). For example, Bomb would have to pull Heavy up higher because he can't jump. Both characters have to reach the end to beat a level.

Heavy
A: Tackle
Hold A: Charge Tackle
Release A: Release Charged Tackle
B: Punch (Can destroy barriers because Bomb can't)
X: Switch with Bomb (shifts the player to controlling Bomb)
Y: Pull Bomb (brings Bomb to Heavy)

Bomb
A: Jump
A while in the Air: Shuffle Jump (like the Flutter Jump from Yoshi games)
B: Explode (can beat enemies but cannot break barriers)
B after Exploding: Regenerate (brings Bomb back)
X: Switch with Heavy
Y: Pull Heavy

Heavy
Alignment: Neutral leaning towards Hero
Type: Power
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 2
Power - 9
Stealth - 2
Stamina - 5
Swim - 4

Bomb
Alignment: Neutral leaning towards Hero
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 9
Power - 2
Stealth - 5
Stamina - 2
Swim - 4
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Pufflehugs » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:09 pm

Andronic the Droid Hog (kind of a Sonic character?)
A: Jump
A while in the Air: Homing Attack
B: Spindash
Hold B: Charge Spindash
Release B: Release Charged Spindash
X: Golden Badniks (temporarily turns all Badniks Gold, making them have a bigger score increase when defeated)
Y: Flag Spin (spins the Final Score Bonus flags as an attack)

Sticks the Badger
A: Jump
A after Jump: Mid-Air Jump (two Mid-Air Jumps can be used before having to land)
B: Boomerang Throw
X: Hookshot (faster but shorter than Tikal's)
Y: Mace Smash (causes a shockwave that stuns enemies)

Andronic the Droid Hog
Alignment: firm Neutral
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Runner
Speed - 8
Power - 5
Stealth - 6
Stamina - 5
Swim - 3

Sticks the Badger
Alignment: firm Hero
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Treasure Hunter
Speed - 8
Power - 2
Stealth - 8
Stamina - 6
Swim - 5
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Pufflehugs » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:45 pm

Classic Sonic
A: Jump
A in the Air: Homing Attack (goes farther but doesn't hurt enemies)
B: Spin Dash
Hold B: Charge Spin Dash
Release B: Release Charged Spin Dash
B in the Air: Insta-Shield (lasts longer but only stuns enemies)
X: Summon Classic Tails (Classic Tails flies Classic Sonic around for 20 seconds. 10 second cool down)
Y: Summon Classic Knuckles (Classic Knuckles attacks enemies for 20 seconds. 20 second cool down)

The Super Sonic Search & Smash Squad plays like Heavy & Bomb but with 3 characters instead of 2.

Scratch
A: Jump
A while in the Air: Fly (Lasts for about 5 seconds)
B: Peck (stuns enemies)
X: Switch with Grounder
Y: Switch with Coconuts

Grounder
A: Jump
B: Drills (beats living creatures but not robots) (also just imagine Tails made robots or something)
B while Drilling: Drill Charge
X: Switch with Coconuts
Y: Switch with Scratch

Coconuts
A: Jump
A while in the Air: Lunge
A while touching wall: Climb
B: Throw Bomb (beats robots but not living creatures) (don't ask why not)
X: Switch with Scratch
Y: Switch with Grounder

Classic Sonic
Alignment: Neutral trending towards Hero
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Runner
Speed - 8 (Classic Knuckles: 5)
Power - 3 (Classic Knuckles: 8)
Stealth - 7 (Classic Tails: 9) (Classic Knuckles: 3)
Stamina - 6 (Classic Knuckles: 5)
Swim - 1 (Classic Tails: 5) (Classic Knuckles: 3)

Scratch
Alignment: firm Dark
Type: Fly?
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 6
Power - 4
Stealth - 9
Stamina - 5
Swim - 1

Grounder
Alignment: firm Dark
Type: Power
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 6
Power - 9
Stealth - 4
Stamina - 5
Swim - 1

Coconuts
Alignment: firm Dark
Type: Speed
Gameplay: Mission
Speed - 9
Power - 4
Stealth - 6
Stamina - 5
Swim - 1
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Re: Character Movesets

Post by Ivogoji » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:21 pm

If we're kicking around ideas for a fan-made Sonic game.


We should totally use this as a basis for character specific gameplay.
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