USA Election 2016

[Goat]

"It's not the same" Well that's just it, you'll never admit it's the same.

People didn't care when isolated and unrelated but still incidents committed by the left happened before. They would condemn it, but would never put their necks out for people affected.

Do that enough, and then you have people who don't want any of you in their "safe space" if you don't mind me calling it. I mean, you have Campus Police saying offending students is against the law. With an infraction against freedom of speech that awful not turning into a national incident or at the very least being resolved. People are going to remember that and carry that with them. Frankly, people are carrying a lot of insults like what I just linked here.

The protesters are responsible for what happened here no matter how much any of you try to shift blame onto Trump. If any of you think differently, just think of what Bernie said in the video I linked. He can't be responsible for what every single one of his supporters will do.

Also it's not delusional or transphobic to believe there are only two genders. Transexuals can only either be men or women, every other gender comes from the mouths of people who a few years ago would have been scene/gothic/emo kids hanging out at the mall.

[Lamby]

#the triggering 2.0

well i'm mtf trans so while it doesn't effect me, i'll just have to accept you can't teach every cis or generally close minded person a world they refuse to accept for arbitrary, bitter and privileged or inexperience/ideology reasons and that's okay regardless how much you think you understand us or how well you mean. and i won't dump anything on your head, i swear

and once again i don't care if he's held responsible because that's impossible, i care he doesn't have the integrity to say don't do something like

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/don ... e2e3d66f79

that

[Goat]

I've seen it here in this topic alone, even if he does apologize or denounce a supporter or an endorser people will rat on him for "taking too long".

[Tsui]

Also it's not delusional or transphobic to believe there are only two genders.

If left uninformed, it's not transphobic exactly, yes, because genders are based on sexes and male and female are the primary sexes while only a (relatively) small fraction of people are intersex. So it's not hard for people to automatically assume gender = sex, because (believe it or not!) they are related and most people have lived their whole lives using gender and sex as synonyms. I guess. Does that make any sense? Wanting to be a different gender because of the way you act ("like a girl" etc.) and not because of body dysmorphia reasons only reinforces gender roles in society, I believe. Where was I going with this?
Basically you can't forget androgynous, bigender, and genderless people exist but you can't expect people to already know all about them because we're raised to believe there are two genders. It's not their fault they don't know, just educate or politely correct them and move on. And if they start to make a fuss then there's a possibility they might be transphobic.
So like, I'm ace, right? But when I correct people to tell them I'm ace and not *insert thing here*, if I explain to them what asexual means and they get it that's cool. But, if they actively believe no one can be asexual, then we might have a problem, y'know? (Though I've had more luck explaining my sexuality than gender to people `~`)

Transexuals can only either be men or women, every other gender comes from the mouths of people who a few years ago would have been scene/gothic/emo kids hanging out at the mall.

Okay now that's a little mean, dude (plus assuming we're using the term transsexual to describe post-op transgender people, you'd think it'd be entirely possible to get everything ~down there~ removed, though at the cost of hormone imbalances, but if it's not a thing now then I believe it should be sooner or later) But yeah non-binary trans people exist! Please don't ignore that.

idk if I said something wrong here please bring it up because I'm not good with words and also I don't want to talk for/over other people

[Goat]

Will I get piss thrown on me or deserve piss thrown on me if I still refuse to conform?

Or is it hate speech to continue to refuse?

I'm not saying it as if anyone here will be the ones to throw it, but simply as a matter of if you'll remain complacent during it. Take of the question as someone, not me, asking you to address. What is the ultimate end goal for people in recognizing any of this? What's the end goal of people who don't conform, accept re-education, or even recognize?

[Lamby]

i'm not "transsexual" because that denotes moving between sexes, and whether i operate (dangerous and very expensive), only purse HRT (which is a battle let me tell you), or stopped presenting myself as a woman because even how i dress doesn't change the following or inherently make me a woman ... i'm still transgender and i'm still a woman, not to mention saying that word is outdated because there's more to me than "whoops boys, do you mind hotdogs?" and i'll bet if you removed or had your plumbing damaged you wouldn't suddenly forget what gender you are because surprise, more defines you than what is in your pants. i'm assuming you on some level agree with that since you accept me as a binary clear cut mtf case. but it's also troublesome because transgender like twiddle said isn't always someone like me or simply saying nonbinary may not accurately convey their identity, and transsexual kinda ignores them even if you're literally referring to a post-op case and even then it's not uncommon for say nonbinary people to get cosmetic surgery, like my friend emory

note, not trying to say it's slurring me or something because yeah it is a state of if i chose operation technically, but still not as inclusive to people that aren't me

What is the ultimate end goal for people in recognizing any of this? What's the end goal of people who don't conform, accept re-education, or even recognize?

the end goal is acceptance and legal protection from discrimination because of who we are? so i can live my life as the girl I am? so laws like banning me from restrooms don't happen and doctors can't turn me away? so things like a trans panic murder defense isn't even a thing? so children don't have to deal with agonizing confusion like i did because i'm slightly older than you and remember a time you better not even dare mention sexuality let alone "mom i think something isn't right because I'm not a boy"? instill the future with better values? to teach others about us? i mean what exactly about these things makes people have a cow and desperately try to explain people away? as for the second question i wish i knew, because honestly sometimes i feel like they're mad because it's something they can't have control over and that losing the privilege to say kinda hurtful things feels like oppression to them. this isn't sarcasm i just really don't know what people expect sometimes

i mean i'm assuming "where does this end" or that i'm mentally damaged is their concern, but people said that about interracial marriage, they said it about homosexuality, republicans said it about FDR's social programs, puritans in massachusetts bay said it about sovereignty, men and some women say it about feminism, there's always some slippery slope doom that never seems to happen or it at least wouldn't with what i want, maybe you're talking a different magnitude than i am.

throwing something at you doesn't teach you anything about transgender issues or how being transgender affects my life so i'd probably lecture them that that behavior sets me back.

edit: but on-topic tomorrow i have doctors appointments so sorry if i miss super tuesday stuff to talk about

[Goat]

the end goal is acceptance and legal protection from discrimination because of who we are?

I was anticipating that response, I knew what the goal was all along but refused to assume it on the grounds of sounding like a conspiracy theorist.

so laws like banning me from restrooms don't happen and doctors can't turn me away?

The restroom debate failed pretty hard in the face of reality over in Seattle recently. I would argue on your end for more context regarding the doctor if you actually care what I have to say on that

so things like a trans panic murder defense isn't even a thing?

I really do hate that defense

so children don't have to deal with agonizing confusion like i did because i'm slightly older than you and remember a time you better not even dare mention sexuality let alone "mom i think something isn't right because I'm not a boy"?

Guess what, I'm younger than you and my ideas are gaining popularity. Guess what's going to happen when we grow up? The idea's you have will be considered outdated, and the brutish ways people had to enforce them will be very much remembered. Now that people who campaigned for so much got what they want, you had a christian bakery face a lawsuit over a cake. If you remember, that same cake issue was attempted by asking for a gay cake at an islamic bakery and asking for a traditional marriage cake at a gay bakery. Both didn't get nearly as much attention as the former here, so I'm confidant my ideas are progressive because you are the old one here while the new generation is being raised knowing the mistakes yours has committed because of how proud it was defeating their enemy but never smart enough to avoid making the same mistakes.

instill the future with better values?

No, you want to instill the future with your values. Not good ones, yours.

to teach others about us?

How do you plan to do that? Is public education involved?

i mean what exactly about these things makes people have a cow and desperately try to explain people away?

I grew up in two different cultural shifts and have been able to see one rise and I'm living on it's final, desperate days of relevancy in a world that would rather let itself commit suicide than ever even look bigoted.

as for the second question i wish i knew, because honestly sometimes i feel like they're mad because it's something they can't have control over and that losing the privilege to say kinda hurtful things feels like oppression to them. this isn't sarcasm i just really don't know what people expect sometimes

You can't explain it because you're not the one whose opinions are not considered popular media, you're not the one who's turned into the villain in media or is the scapegoat for societies ills. You could understand it before, much like I did give your earlier comment on "not even dare mention sexuality". But now that your opinions are the ones that write shows, cast all female casts in movies, change races in movies, or are marketable in video games, you can't say you're the counterculture anymore.

i mean i'm assuming "where does this end" or that i'm mentally damaged is their concern, but people said that about interracial marriage, they said it about homosexuality, republicans said it about FDR's social programs, puritans in massachusetts bay said it about sovereignty, men and some women say it about feminism, there's always some slippery slope doom that never seems to happen or it at least wouldn't with what i want, maybe you're talking a different magnitude than i am.

Answer the question, what happens to people who don't accept this? You want legal protection, so that means you intend on using the law to some degree don't you?

The difference here between a lot of this I will explain.
1. Something called Gender Dysphoria exists
2. Being in an interracial relationships myself I refuse to allow you to compare it to being dysphoric.
3. Homosexuality as it turns out is actually pretty natural, what you advocate isn't.
4. His programs are actually outdated if you would ever leave your ivory tower, if I recall they're still based on what we believed would be old age then compared to now.
5. No clue about this, sorry.
6. Men and more women than you would think really hate what feminism has become

As for slippery slopes of doom, I think I've linked to people having discussions on beastiality and incestual acceptence and we have leftist student groups in sweden who want to commit incest and necrophilia. Do you really think the slippery slopes people warned about was wrong? Even now you have pedophiles using the same argument used for homosexuality, the "what happens behind closed doors doesn't concern you" one. People warned them they would do so, and now places like Salon have even given pedophile a platform.

Those people don't deserve any platform to speak, and if being against bestiality, pedophilia, and incest are conservative actions when it should be "progressives" putting a limit to how much people will get away with, then I'll argue that I'm the one whose more progressive than your average liberal.

[Lamby]

Homosexuality as it turns out is actually pretty natural, what you advocate isn't.

in one sentence your entire beef comes forward, and there's really nothing to say to that but that it's a lot of words you're hiding behind to disguise your prejudiced or um countercultural or whatever you're naming it rhetoric as something noble that protects society from ... gender identity, but that's okay, i mean you do you, i'll do me, just don't be surprised when your weak tolerance of a group of people gets you lumped in with

who's turned into the villain in media or is the scapegoat for societies ills.

just wowie. i can't teach people who refuse to learn and i won't try. sorry you feel that way i guess, but i don't want to derail your thread sooo yeah

for clarity, i know what gender dysphoria is, i deal with it, but i meant being called mentality ill in a derogatory way to dismiss me as delusional when my transition is the treatment. also i've already had to get a new pulmonary specialist because he "wasn't comfortable" treating me... when literally i didn't even come to him to talk about who i am now but my lungs. frankly i don't understand taking a job where you're bound to meet people that don't believe in your bigoted nonsense

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

If being unnatural makes something bad, why are you defending tighter controls over who crosses the artificial borders governments have agreed on? Why are you defending humans being able to defend themselves with anything besides their own fists? Hell, why are you using a computer to access the Internet and participate in this discussion?

Rhetorical questions aside, humans arguably haven't lived in a natural state since before Homo Sapiens first evolved(or for the Bible Literalists in the audience, since Adam and Eve invented the loincloth), and to my knowledge, even the most primitive(in the sense of technological advancement) of tribal peoples known to exist today have at least figured out such things as clothing, tools for hunting, and building artificial shelters.

All else equal, I suppose preferring natural things to unnatural things makes sense, but saying something is good simply because it is natural or something is bad just because it is unnatural is a pretty weak argument, especially when there are many natural things most humans would call bad(such as poisonous animals, predators of livestock, and things that devour crops) and many unnatural things most humans couldn't imagine living without(such as clothing and artificial shelters).

Also, while I can't claim to understand non-binary gender or why proponents of such want to bundle some of the character traits and behaviors they focus on into a concept of gender identity, I am a strong believer in the philosophy that "people are different and that's okay.", and to that end have trouble understanding why anyone would object to someone acting in a manner the observer deems unusual when the behavior doesn't harm anyone and has no immediate impact on the observer.

It's a bit extreme, but as long as they aren't hurting anyone and aren't a burden on society, someone could live under the delusion they're king of their own imaginary country inhabited by creatures that would make Dr. Suess and H.P. Lovecraft's creations look downright mundane and the most they'd get out of me is a "that's weird, maybe you should publish the history of your country online."

Also, I'd have to file the taboos against pedophilia, beastiality, and incest, like most sexual taboos, under the list of things I don't understand. In fact, the only sexual taboo I can really say I agree with is the taboo on rape. Also, in the hopes of minimizing misunderstandings, there is a big difference between finding a little girl sexually attractive and actually having sex with said little girl, and I don't believe for a moment that a man would be anymore likely to rape a female he finds sexually attractive just because she was 13 as opposed to 31. Besides, it's my understanding that pedophilia isn't a prerequisite for child molestation, and I have read sources that claimed most child molestors aren't pedophiles and that non-pedophiles are actually more likely to molest children than pedophiles, though I have no idea how valid those claims were. Granted, with me being an unrepentant lolicon, the pedophilia taboo might hit a bit too close to home for me to be objective(and it's not like people haven't made attempts to have loli artwork lumped in with child **** and those who look at loli artwork lumped in with child molestors).

[Goat]

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... -reported/
https://www.facebook.com/DisdainForPleb ... 008455246/

It's a bit extreme, but as long as they aren't hurting anyone and aren't a burden on society, someone could live under the delusion they're king of their own imaginary country inhabited by creatures that would make Dr. Suess and H.P. Lovecraft's creations look downright mundane and the most they'd get out of me is a "that's weird, maybe you should publish the history of your country online."

Until they start seeking legal protection and acceptance, which kinda winds up being an end goal when such ideas are popularized.

As for you Jeff, what's the end goal someone like you seeks in regards to your beliefs?

Super Tuesday Edit: MY HOME STATE IS MAKING ME PROUD
Post Super Tuesday 2 Edit: VICTORY SCREECH

[wic.]

In response to you calling my soc teacher a self hating white person, he's Asian, I don't see how his race is relevant though. As for refuting your point about immigrants taking jobs, I'm gonna pull a triert and direct you to watch the immigration episode of Inside Man. The host editorializes a bit, but in that episode are facts coming directly from the government that disprove that.

Moving on to more relevant news, Obama announces that his nomination of choice to fill the Supreme Court vacancy is Merrick Garland. To my knowledge, he's relatively moderate (at least comparatively to the rest of the liberal side of the court).

I would be really ashamed in my government if he, who is more than qualified, is voted against by the senate. The Supreme Court vacancy needs to be filled, and it's the current presidents job, not the next ones. I would be disgusted if either party were to try these stalling tactics, because it's inherently unjust. If democrats were doing this with a GOP president, I would equally chastise them.

As for the violence Chicago, blaming it on any one side is stupid. It takes two to tango, and this is no different. Those protestors have the first amendment right to be there though, just like Trump supporters have their first amendment right to protest a Bernie or Hillary rally. As for that video of the disabled person being verbally harassed, that's super ****** and I don't condone that. However, they seemed more than capable of defending themselves against a shouting 20-somethings girl and, Batty can correct me if I'm wrong but, I feel like people who are so appalled especially because this person is disabled is kinda condescending and ableist in a way. That's just my experience with having close family and a romantic partner who are physically disabled.

[Goat]

Now, I've done a lot of searching. This being the most relevant video I can use, I will assume the best out of you and theorize you couldn't find the video either.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... n-the-u-s/

Right off the bat, "After being here, I don't think most of you would do this job. That's the fact." We see him say that people here are being paid very, under the current minimum wage we have in the USA at 2.85$ an hour.

So, we see a man like any other here in the USA working in the fields with the illegals, yet the illegals make up most of that workforce itself. Nothing stopping others from entering it, but illegals have a lot of spots there. Here's an idea, deport them, create jobs by building a wall and more jobs by upkeeping the wall itself. Then, you have poor and lower class CITIZENS working in those fields instead of illegal immigrants. But let's not stop there, let's have the poor and lower class DEMAND that these companies pay at the very least minimum wage unless of course we have a law dictating they're allowed to pay this much, similar to waiters and waitresses.

Or do you want to defend their working conditions and their pay? Or do you not want lower class citizens having the chance at this kind of work? It might be cruel mercy to deport them all, but their needs should not come before the needs of our own citizens.

However, they seemed more than capable of defending themselves against a shouting 20-somethings girl and, Batty can correct me if I'm wrong but, I feel like people who are so appalled especially because this person is disabled is kinda condescending and ableist in a way.

I'm going to ask you to rewatch it and look at the fact that he was on a wheelchair. I don't mean to point out the obvious but, his leg's don't work as well as they should if he's on that.

It's not "ableist" to be appalled that Bernie supporters and rioters decided to harass a wheelchair bound man, if you'll notice you'll see he had people in front and behind him harassing him in the video. If that were me I'd find myself very hard pressed trying to get out of that kind of encirclement.

[Lamby]

it's pretty clear by the comments those people have zero experience with or talking about disabled people or treating them as equals.

we're not children and often appreciate people not speaking for us, or trivializing what we're doing by focusing on the fact we're disabled. because it's like saying "all that poor wheelchair person wanted to do is support trump and someone yelled at him!" so what? even if she's/they were being rude at least she's treating him with equality and not using him to feel like a pillar of morality

though he couldn't be that informed if he actually thinks conservatives would lift one finger to help him, they'll be too busy saying things like "please understand, mandating accessibility is too much on a business" or "next thing you know, they might shove acceptance of disability etiquette down our throats"... except when it's convenient to care like when someone who shares their beliefs is at stake, but when it comes to ableism, our lobbyists, accessibility, a universal healthcare system that would actually help with medical equipment--radio silence

however even someone on my side politically has done something similar in the past so it's not just the right, people just don't seem to grasp us in general unless someone specially close to them is disabled

[Goat]

we're not children and often appreciate people not speaking for us, or trivializing what we're doing by focusing on the fact we're disabled.

Ahem

if you're a disabled, transgender woman like me

Focusing on the fact

Granted, I did so too later but only because you started the oppression olympics by bringing up the rest of your ills.

and by the way, this might be hard to believe, but as disabled transwoman i actually am not feeling remotely equal in society's eyes, sometimes even my own movement

it's pretty clear by the comments those people have zero experience with or talking about disabled people or treating them as equals.

Explain yourself and rectify why this all makes sense

Now, here's the thing. Someone we actually have to treat with equity because of circumstances outside of their ability to function in life and not for being black or a woman, is actually in a rather compromising position here as seen.

[wic.]

@Triert (I'm on mobile so don't wanna fuss around w quotes)

That's why I told you to watch the episode, not a unrepresentative 3 minute clip. Because your entire argument is based around a misinterpretation of it. In the end of the episode, you see that when he receives his check he's given additional money so that his income reflects the minimum wage of the state. It also discusses the facts more in depth, that these jobs are available, but a majority of people who decide to take them don't keep them. These jobs Are available to citizens, they just have to take it and stick to it. They have the chance at it dude, that's the point.

As for the ableism, I'll let an actual disabled person speak about it.

[Goat]

That's why I told you to watch the episode, not a unrepresentative 3 minute clip. Because your entire argument is based around a misinterpretation of it.

You're the one who didn't include the episode, while I'm the one who put more effort than you did for the video I asked you to watch by attempting to find it online.

Don't complain about having your argument misrepresented if you weren't ready to defend your stance by providing sources.

Finally, which disabled person here?

[wic.]

I told you the episode, I don't currently have the means to link you. You can look it up and find it, it's easy, it's both on Netflix and you can find streams.

I don't care if you watch it or not, but if you don't, I want the record to show that you refuted my facts and my argument based solely on the fact you don't want to watch the whole episode.

Also, someone who has a comparable disability in terms of limited movement, like Batty.

[Goat]

I don't currently have the means to link you.

Link it when you're not on your phone then.

You can look it up and find it, it's easy, it's both on Netflix and you can find streams.

I don't have a netflix, I'm broke.

I don't care if you watch it or not, but if you don't, I want the record to show that you refuted my facts and my argument based solely on the fact you don't want to watch the whole episode.

When did I ever say I don't want to watch your video as much as I've said you haven't provided it and don't think you're refraining from posting it for a bad reason.

[wic.]

Ah, to be poor. I remember that ****.

I don't know if you've never really participated in any higher education, like university, because I really don't understand why you believe that someone is expected to post a physical location to a source/citation in an argumentative format. It's not really how it works, you cite your reference, not present it, like you do. No offense, but the way you conduct argumentative discussion is really childish/rookie.

But, just for you, I'll link you to a site where you can find streams of the specific episode.

Here you are

People have to hire visa workers and illegal immigrants because only 5% of the people who get the jobs and accept them actually stay.

[Goat]

Ah, to be poor. I remember that ****.

I don't know if you've never really participated in any higher education, like university, because I really don't understand why you believe that someone is expected to post a physical location to a source/citation in an argumentative format.

You said you were pulling a Triert, I choose to add links instead of citations. If you're going to act like me, I'm going to make sure you do.

I'm watching the episode while writing this I should mention, thank you for it.

[Lamby]

when someone else's ignorance of disability etiquette contributes directly to the infantilising of people in wheelchairs, i am going to speak up, period, because just because someone has good intentions when defending someone in a wheelchair doesn't mean they're being socially responsible.

there are some issues that tie directly to my disability or that i'm transgender, and when you're both, you're kidding yourself if you think they don't make each other that much harder to deal with. what you disdainfully call oppression olympics, which really validates to me my old preconceptions that those ideas really are fueled by "how come other people get special treatment and i don't" especially privileged whining about women and trans people and other minorities, though i guess it's not impossible for someone to make more disparity while trying to end it, i call it whether you like it or not, there are things i deal with you never will, just like i'm sure you have things i won't, and i'm uninterested in how unfair you think that is. regardless, and i'm pretty sure anyone with reading comprehension including you knows this, there's a huge difference in me choosing when my disability or my apparently unnatural estrogen ordained mutation of transgender tyranny (that's medically approved) is relevant to what i'm saying, and people reducing some guy to a defenseless and weak creature without his consent. if he was preyed upon because he couldn't defend himself or he wanted to escape but could not because people were abusing his disability, or he was being harassed for his disability that's one thing, but being yelled at is not something disabled people need protection from because i can deal with that. and the bigger picture is that perpetuates that people don't see adults doing what they want, but grown children on wheels

though yeah people really need to settle down

edit: :cc

[Goat]

I'm sorry, but my high school educated brain while inferior to your much more sophisticated one remembers a little book called The Jungle that people used to defend workers from unsafe conditions.

These mexicans are right, citizens wouldn't taken these jobs because we've been told to expect more out of an employer from such books. Better pay and safer conditions is good, working around it using this program.

All throughout the video you have these migrant workers proudly reminding everyone that the new, legal citizen is underperforming. On his first day whereas everyone else has been there for years, there is something fundementaly here. Why is such a thing repeated past the first time, no **** the new guy underperforms, anyone else would.

Now I feel like joining ICE itself to help Trump deport migrant workers by hand, and then telling them vete para el carajo right as they're being escorted out of the USA.

You were very right on the editorializing however.

Unrelated but, it's....really funny that I could see people barking at Rubio given how horrendously he just lost against Trump.

Also, while I may still be upset over Obama I want to commend him for deporting illegal immigrants. Thanks Obama!

Finally, your statement from this video only reflects polk county in Florida, try stronger.

-----

Personally Batty, I think someone like him should have a gun. That way the next time someone like him gets surrounded, harassed and has to potentially risk a lawsuit over running over someones foot on accident in trying to leave such a toxic environment. He can claim self defense appropriately given that he faces different situations and problems I don't, and that these dirty socialists would try such a move. Given how violent we saw them, I think it's only right someone like him have that much defense.

As for the rest of what you said, and given that I've just about had it with the elitism over education in this topic out of you and wic, I'll be the country bumpkin for once give in to the stereotype given the topic let's me do exactly that. I really don't care about what you said, see you at voting day.

-----

For anyone who's interested, quite a couple of edits to this video. I might repost or edit this later for an unedited version. Personally, if this is the highest form of college education. I'll stay poor and debt free for as long as I want.

[wic.]

You ain't even gotta go that far into debt unless you're dumb, it's not difficult to get full rides, or at least partials. I've gotten money from my school based solely on my ACT which my highschool paid for all students to take. That's literally thousands of dollars for free just because I did well on a free test that was provided through my free public highschool. Easy.

And my purpose of pointing it out to you isn't to insult or discredit you, but for you to learn so people take you seriously. I imagine you'd like to actually appear somewhat more well read and mature than the average redditor.


I'm kinda confused as to why you're getting so upset at the workers giving Morgan some friendly jeers. Morgan seems to be finding them amusing, I don't get how this is so offensive. No one expected him to be great, if you remember, multiple workers actually tell him that he exceeded their actual expectations.

Also, go bigger?

According to Forbes, not only do they not "take" jobs, they actually raise the wages of native workers.

And the NY Times talking about the lump for labor fallacy.

Also, I really don't think that someone shouting at someone warrants them being shot. That's like ridiculous, that's not even self defense at that point. And, coming in family who has been involved in multiple lawsuits regarding a disabled person (my uncle who is a quadriplegic) I know for a fact that in that exact situation that the disabled person wouldn't be charged omg. I can't imagine being so ignorant of the legal system that you'd believe someone would have to shoot a person yelling at them in order to avoid a lawsuit. That's a great way to actually Get a lawsuit, not driving away from a situation.

[Goat]

I'm not sure if the fact you're still trying means you think you actually want to change my stance on the subject, or if you want to sway others here like I intend to.

As for education, I wasn't so fortunate when it came to my upbringing in a lot of ways. My formal education suffered and I've had to rely on getting textbooks from alternative means because of it. The specifics and details of it all is something I really can't discuss here in regards to legality.

Also, if your purpose isn't to insult or discredit. Then do you mind telling me how exactly people debate over at whatever college I can only assume you've gone to? Personally knowing someone who's been to college, they've told me the exact method I have here (barring the metaphorical table flipping at Batty) in providing sources and reading from them wound up being rather important in their debates.

Despite trashing the method, you're still using it. Something seems rather wrong there, you could have easily "Cited" them if I recall.

Finally, if you want to know why I'm as upset as I am. I've been in one too many toxic work environments then I would like to admit. I had to keep my mouth shut to avoid losing my own job which I was keeping and earning what money I could in order to pay for going to college. Ultimately I wound up losing it over an unexpected but not surprising reason. Given that we can't seem to escape race or ethnicity in this topic, I'll come out and say they were hispanic much like I was.

Given the environment of the workers, I can only assume these migrants and their attitudes don't help people want to stay at these labor intensive jobs much either. Call it friendly all you want wic, I know when someone is trying to push a narrative at this point. That's not something a college will teach you, but it is something most people have to fight against when pushed by college students.

As for your articles given.

People in the middle and upper-middle classes don’t mind poorly educated, low-skilled immigrants entering the country.

Why does this sound like it's relevant to me moreso

Also, were they really trying to argue in favor of open borders in that NYT article? I mean given it was made back in March before we saw migrants trash europe.

Maybe I can infer something from all of this, undocumented workers aren't at fault here.

USA Companies are, just look at Disney, or even Toys R Us for that matter. Disney even made them train their foreign replacements for severance.

H1-B Visa isn't exactly that old, as for the companies that depend on it or take advantage of it I really think they're due to burn (economically) and let someone else take their place. I mean, that's what capitalism let's us do, given that Bernie is beyond dead in the caucus at this point that's the direction we'll be heading now. If companies can't hire migrants, they'll be stuck with citizens. If citizens don't like the conditions or the pay, we can fight for making it better.

Or does that statement by that article ring true in regards to you too? At this point the fact that I've had to argue for the interests of the USA poor more than you have in favor of immigrants makes me feel like more of a socialist by comparison. You've made it clear you don't exactly connect with us, why bother?

Edit: Now, I might have neglected to include what I have to say on that Forbes article. I'm sifting through the sources they gave and looking for ways to obtain it, so give that some time if you want a response, it might be a little bit.

Proponents of restrictions maintain, without empirical evidence, that undocumented immigrants tend to be low-wage workers who typically send their wages abroad and thus have little incentive to purchase car insurance, even if they could.

From the symposium they sourced no less, this wound up being something you showed that happened in the video itself.

If I recall, another factor that makes people no want to give illegal immigrant drivers license is the fact that they'll be able to vote subsequently. They would in turn vote democrat if given the chance.

Given the nature of the states that are usually blue states doing this as the source they used show, it only further proves the suspicion.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

If we got rid of the migrant workers(which I don't believe is practical in the first place), it still strikes me as more likely that those fields currently being harvested by migrants would either have crops rotting in them or see a shift to machine harvesting rather than the mass hiring of non-migrants to replenish the labor force. Hell, I could see some corporate farms moving operations south of the border to follow the workers if staying on American soil meant having to rely on non-migrants willing to do farm work.

It's not that I have a preference for helping migrants over poor non-migrants. I'm just not convinced screwing over the former would come anywhere near benefiting the latter to the extent implied by the pro-deportation camp, nor do I think mass deportation would only negatively impact the deported and the companies that took advantage of cheap migrant labor. The status quo in this area isn't great, and I've no ideas for what might actually make things better, but I don't think mass deportation has any potential for creating a net improvement to society, either for the US in particular or the World in general.

Granted, I doubt I'll change anyone's minds.