USA Election 2016

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Re: USA Election 2016 (Intermission Edition)

Post by wic. »

I'm not trying to change minds, I just like the sport of debate. And if you're really trying to change minds, you're really failing at it, as the one person you seemed to really have on your side earlier ended up voting for Bernie Sanders.

The main problems with how you debate is the use of fallacies (everyone uses fallacies to some extent though, including myself, so I'm not gonna really call you out on it), allowing other people (videos, sites, etc.) literally make your argument for you, your choice of citations, and how you present your sources.

There's a difference between quoting a stat from source and actually reading that source out loud during a debate, you kinda do the equivalent of the latter by actually presenting your source. You can't condemn me for also resorting to presentation style, but when I did in the past just cite a reference you wasted both of our time coming up with reasons you couldn't view it, and ultimately forced me to present it. So, you'll force me to do something, then call me out for doing it. The sources you've used has gotten better than it has been in the past, but still you cite some less than reputable sources and sources with a super clear lean. Citing TheConservativeTreeHouse (which looks like someone's blog), "Disdain For Plebs" Facebook account, and actually MGS2 are less than valid sources. Like I said though, you've actually gotten better. In my earlier post when I said I was gonna "pull a triert", I was trying to get you to be more self aware of the fact that many times you just post a video and have the video make your argument for you. It's kinda unprofessional and lazy. Same with using infographics, but I can tolerate infographics more than someone using a video to make their argument for them.

I can understand why that would upset, toxic working conditions, but what you're committing is something we in psychology call the fundamental attribution error. You're making the baseless assumption that these people would be jeering on and making a toxic work place for any native worker, as opposed to looking at the context of the episode. Neither of us can actually know if that's how they would present themselves on an actual day-to-day basis. I'm not the one pushing a narrative here, you are. I'm pointing out the fact that, with Morgan, it was friendly jeering. You're the one observing this and making the assumption that this is how these people operate on a day-to-day basis.

I'll definitely agree with you in terms of US companies being to blame for foreign ILLEGAL labor, but these cases the labor is more than legal because of they had work visas. That's not what I'm talking about, those are people who have the legal permission of our government to come here and work. I may not personally agree with what those companies are doing, but what they're doing is in the full letter of the law. I'll admit that that is a bit of a moral gray area for me, though. I'm more concerned with corporations moving oversees to take advantage of children and workers who will work for legitimate slave wages.

But back to the topic of actual ILLEGAL immigrants, because immigrants who come on work visas aren't. I assume you've been able to vote, right? Because, you don't just walk up with a license and get your ballot. You have to register first, and then when you actually vote you have to show them your license and they have to find your name in their little book and make sure you're a resident of that precinct, and by extension, the US. It's possible to get a non-resident driver's license in the US and it doesn't instantly make this person a voting eligible citizen of the United States. So, this whole "it'll mean more votes for democrats if they can get licenses" is just a crackpot conspiracy theory.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (Intermission Edition)

Post by Goat »

I don't care if that person chose to vote for Bernie, sometimes I might align with someone else on different matters but ultimately there's more social pressure against conservatives nowadays in many aspects people would never admit to. Much like the silent majority that has come out in support of Trump, I intend to sway the silent majority as well. Now I would have wanted him to vote Trump but many of my friends are voting Bernie, I'm just waiting until Hilary is finally and formally announced to start knocking down misconceptions of Trump they have.

Given their account, they actually had to do exactly what you described me doing during their debate at their college.

You're not looking to be dishonest in me trying to say that I literally used a MGS2 as a factual source as much that I did a coincidental foretelling of how we're living now are you? Going into this debate I'm fully aware and doing my best to avoid having you and I both bring up sources that form like a snake biting it's own tail. But unforunately when I analyzed your source, analyzed your sources source on my own and comparing it to what you gave me and found many discrepancies and lies of omission you can't be upset that I wasted your time if what you presented could have been ruined that easily. That only makes what you presented weak, but to be fair many people these days are being very unprofessional in how they present their facts. I've only done nothing but open up the possibility that where I get my news from can not only be open for interpretation but proven false by anyone here.

Instead I'm left with you griping over their usage and your libelous claims of having them write my arguments. That Trump video was meant to compare what he said and what the media said, don't get upset that it was unfortunately a lot of lies the media has made and even in the video itself there were points I could agree could be very open for interpretation. But the problem here is posting the video instead of what was wrong with the content of the video, I sat through your propaganda didn't I?

You're the college educated one if context serves me, shouldn't this be more of a cakewalk for you if your education holds up? No, you've instead taken the option to simply ignore that video and any mistakes even I myself may have felt were there but would have preferred a second opinion on myself. In a video that compares statements to media headlines that have been driven into the ground by the Sanders supporters here, where do you think I'm left with people who willfully and openly discard it rather than make an attempt to analyze it.

You did accomplish one thing, I'm happily exhausted from this topic so I think I'll call it quits right now than continue for hedonistic reasons. If you want to continue this discussion privately you can always send me a PM
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Re: USA Election 2016 (Intermission Edition)

Post by wic. »

I didn't watch an hour long video about how the media twists what politicians say because I'm not an idiot who only reads sensationalized headlines and extrapolates information based on those headlines. As I stated earlier, I'm able to form my own opinions based on actually combing through the news and listening to the full statements by politicians. But I find it interesting you defend Trump's treatment by the press, then take a snippet from the democratic debate and framed it so it seemed Senator Sanders said it's impossible for white people to be poor. At least be nonpartisan and consistent if you're gonna defend politicians from the press.

Also the Trump majority is not a silent majority, neither is the Sanders or the Clintons. They all tend to be pretty loud.

I find it interesting the only thing that you responded to were my criticisms of your debating skills and not the actual content of my post.

As for you no longer wanting to debate, that's your choice, I don't mind. Like I said, I just like the sport of debate and it's kinda hard to have a debate with a non-willing partner, so if you're done then I am too.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP Sucks a Thousand Cocks Edition)

Post by Goat »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkET3LthemY

**** the GOP, vote Hilary if Trump is cheated by the GOP.

This entire country deserves whatever this country woman wants, even Bernie looks much nicer in comparison. But it's not like people didn't warn me about this.

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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Pufflehugs »

Obama for President 2016
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Goat »

^ Enjoy the TPP
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Crazo3077 »

I haven't been reading the thread, but I wanted to share an experience.

Today I was part of a multi-directional argument between people within the Dem. Party who were for and against Sanders. One woman who was passionate about Clinton insisted that Sanders is a misogynist. This was apparently based on a poorly written piece from 1972, where Sanders tried to criticize gender roles by pointing out how popular violent sexual fantasies were in particular magazines, while also be present in our media. This woman stands by this as proof, even if everything else Sanders has ever done has been done to help women.

I know people want to believe that Clinton is the better choice, but this just seems desperate and disillusioned.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Goat »

I'm sure it must hurt knowing the candidate you support has had what he said taken out of context
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Hey a topic on politics. I can do a politics. Everyone is cringe-y af except for Sanders. Sanders has nature on his side with that bird that did the thing.

Boom done.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Goat »

>Implying this won't get worse

We need Trump so we can finally kill the Social Justice Warrior mentality, Bernie is a complete beta who will only encourage and enable them.

If people revolt over Trump being elected, we'll just have to shoot them. Transgrience will not be tolerated
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Dr. Roivas »

okay I wasn't gonna get involved in this **** but oh my god Triert what part of that post doesn't sound ****** up to you

Like how can you get all uppity about people protesting trump and then say that people should be shot for revolting? What part of that doesn't sound like something a fascist would do???
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Goat »

I like to think at this point both Bernie and Trump supporters wound up becoming more fascist for their side.

I mean yeah I know what I said was messed up, but the Arizona blockade that involved making a wall to prevent people from getting to a Trump rally, on top of attacking people and calling it a protest

Well, it kinda makes me think that some people are turning into a liability and their idea's do nothing but harm the stability of a region. But before you get mad at me, I think the only place we'll get anywhere done is at the voting booth. But I swear if Trump is made the republican candidate, and people start attacking republican voters.

We're shooting back.

Edit: I could have sworn someone else here also said "Transgrience will not be tolerated"
Edit: What I meant to say was under no circumstances should intransigence be coddled
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by wic. »

Bro no Sanders supporter in this topic has said that someone expressing their first amendment right should be shot, you said it twice. If you're gonna be a fascist, don't pussy out about it by saying how the others are facists or how you said it for shock value.

Also "transgrience" isn't even a word and I'm not even too sure what it's supposed to mean. Good luck tolerating/not tolerating something that doesn't even exist lol.
Last edited by wic. on Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Crazo3077 »

The problem is that the protesting isn't a one-way issue. If we didn't have Sanders, but still had Trump, you'd see the same type of activity, but instead with people more often carrying signs for Clinton or maybe even O'Malley. Or you might even see a large "Anyone But Trump" movement. Because the issue here isn't "We like Sanders, so we're going to ruin Trump." The issue is "We don't like what Trump stands for, but we like this other guy who stands for stuff we do like." Sanders just happens to be that other guy.

Your idea that Sanders promotes an SJW mentality, or that Trump could manage to crush it, ignores the complexity of the populations of this country. We will always have people who want to be more sensitive and maybe civil to a fault, just as we will always have people who want to be tough skinned and assertive to a fault. This isn't a problem that will change with a president.

If anything, I don't agree that Trump would crush any sort of PC behavior. I imagine Trump becoming president would, if anything, bolster a great fight for social change, because instead of the current world, where the only thing that can be blamed for all of the horrible things SJWs want to fight is the chaotic nature of social development, we will see a new world where that enemy has a face: the leader of the country. People will behave under the belief that they are starting a true revolution that should change the country. Things can only get worse if the leader of our country is everything that an SJW hates.

Disclaimer: I use SJW as a placeholder, partly to communicate in Goat's existing language, but also because for me, SJW is just someone who wants to fight for social change but is not very sociable when going about it. I'm not opposed to activism, and even try to get involved locally when I can, but I understand that there is a fine line that some people can cross.

---

In response to the earlier bit, the issue I had with the woman on Facebook wasn't that she was taking Sanders out of context, because even out of context all it says is that he wrote a line where a woman has a sexual fantasy that was violent. The issue I took is the woman's inability to understand one instance of ambiguous text from over 40 years ago and compare it to things Sanders has done in his actual career. That's like saying "Well this man wrote about a kitten be killed once, but when he held a political position for several years he regularly voted in favor of animal rights. Clearly he must hate animals." She also seemed to value Clinton's political experience over Sanders's experience, even though he has four times as much experience holding a position as an elected official, solely because Clinton has been a member of the Dem. Party longer, and thus must already know everyone she will have to work for. What was upsetting was seeing a woman desperately come up with excuses to express that Clinton is a better politician, and not even by the standard that a politician should deny ever holding a position contrary to the one they currently hold.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Goat »

https://www.facebook.com/amagicalplace/ ... 5336363409

I contribute a video to the topic

@Wic:
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It's okay Wic, it's normal for socialists to ignore their own history of violence just to make socialism that much more appealing to a new generation of easily led individuals. But yeah, it isn't a word. I'm wondering how auto-correct didn't catch it myself but eh

@Crazo: Clinton supporters are going to have a hard time defending her when she's inevitably nominated, Bernies string of victories in caucus states are going to be harder to replicate in primary states.

I don't care if Trump becomes a face for people, white people, straight people, cis people, and men already became that face a long time ago. At least if people get violent, we can finally remind them who has the real power in this country once and for all. If people didn't want this kind of violence and this kind of divide in the USA to occur, people should have stood against them when they could have been stopped in their tracks. It's too late now, so good luck to anyone on the right side of history. Get it? Because that's something a lot of lefties like to say because they think their position is infallible?

Edit: https://archive.is/4fBSd
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by wic. »

Ignoring that complete straw man, I never even said I identified as a socialist. I identify as a social liberal/independent. I support more socialist policies, and I support a socialist president because I'm not an idiot who believes that one man can change the entire economic system on which this country was founded.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Trump is objectively bad for the country. Hillary is afraid of getting called out for all of the ****** up **** she does. All the other Republicans act like children. I think its obvious who to vote for.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Goat »

Deez Nuts failed to take any major states, he is a failure but the outlook looks grim for us now that he is out of the race.

Also, have a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNwN11j954Y
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

I found the perfect video to describe why a lot of people find Trump cringe-y. This was actually his original campaign secretly. Really big secret, hard to trace its origins. Just trust me its true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y7u07v4qjk
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

I don't know enough about fascism to evaluate the accuracy of the accusations of fascism, but I'm pretty sure fascism is a fairly specific subset of totalitarian philosophy, and suspect most of what people call fascism online doesn't qualify. That's assuming, of course, that the accused is actually guilty of what lead the accuser to calling them a fascist, and internet debaters have the same bad habit as mainstream politicians when it comes to twisting each others' words to put them in the worst possible light.

I also think it worth repeating that socialism does not, in and of itself, form a complete political philosophy, nor does capitalism. Yes, there have been totalitarian and militant socialists, but there have also been libertarian and pacifist socialists and there have been totalitarian and militant capitalists. That said, to the extent I can be said to be part of the socialist slice of the political cube, I'm very firmly in the pacifist libertarian quadrant of that slice. To clarify, when I say political cube, I'm adding a third axis of pacifism vs militarism to the more familiar political compass, a concept I've seen before, but hasn't gain much attention, possibly because people struggle to accept most perceived dichotomies are actually extremes of a spectrum, much more so that most perceived spectra are actually a two or more dimensional continuum. Also doesn't help that it's difficult to graph three-dimensional data on a flat surface or 4-and-higher dimensional data even in a 3D model.

As for the candidates themselves, I avoid traditional news media and mainstream social media like the plague, so what I know about them is mostly what I've picked up through osmosis. That said, the impression I've gotten of the candidats can be summed up as follows:

Trump: Seems to hate most of humanity due to faulty extrapolations from a few of humanity's worst. His supporters don't do a very good job of dispelling this notion, but rather try to make this sound like a good thing.
Other republicans: Either no one cares or their supporters are being unusually quiet.
Clinton: Can't get a read on her, but is presumably still in the race because she has nation-wide name recognition from her time as First Lady and Secretary of State.
Sanders: Sounds like the rare example of a major-party fielding a halfway decent candidate. Might actually vote major party if he gets the nomination, and kind of hoping he goes minor party if Clinton gets the nomination.
Minor parties: No one has dragged them into this media circus. Granted, I'm convinced traditional news media wouldn't give a minor party the time of day because they're part of the mechanism that keeps the major parties in power.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Goat »

Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:Trump: Seems to hate most of humanity due to faulty extrapolations from a few of humanity's worst. His supporters don't do a very good job of dispelling this notion, but rather try to make this sound like a good thing.
When will this meme end
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Nano »

I'd like to dispel the notion that Donald Trump isn't a raging racist who doesn't know what he's doing.

He's a raging racist who knows EXACTLY what he's doing.

Also Hillary is super sketchy, but the Democratic party is even more sketchy right now with the Arizona, Massachusetts, and Iowa thing.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Okay, I just watched about 30 minutes of Late Night with Seth Meyers VoDs about political affairs. I'm all down for not him. Fite me.
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by Goat »

Which one?

Also, just to gut anyone from saying this ahead of time.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-rele ... g-abortion

Good luck arguing against this mediamites
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Re: USA Election 2016 (GOP sucks a thousand curds edition)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

I don't even have all the links. One about Trump not calling out the ex-KKK dude for supporting him, the one where trump literally said the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life (it was something like "i'm gonna call bill gates and we're gonna shut the internet down"), and a couple others that were funny af. Seriously, the VoDs are def worth a watch. I would recommend that show to everyone its just, amazing.

EDIT: Also, Donald Trump's site looks like it was coded entirely in HTML5
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