The Animation General

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Re: The Animation General

Postby chaoadventures » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:55 pm

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this topic will not be going anywhere soon
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Lamby » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:42 pm

yeah i want to call in a complaint

my harem didn't please me dubbed because there's like politicalness and stuff. i don't have refined taste because elitists are fake

come on dude ur beards in overdrive right now. no one wants to ban dubs to comfort some guys' complexes. i for one want some equivalent cultural context and not be bored to death but that's just me. that said idc what is more faithful, it doesn't mean anything to me, because i'm watching a show, which has no bearing on the source. in the west, adaptation is like 70% of everything you see anyway

it's like when a bunch of amateur male comic readers whined marvel to oblivion for changing material they have a legal right or license to

anyway i agree with crazo bc he pretty much covered everything and i only occasionally like eastern media because it's a lot harder to translate into western equivalent than people realize. try to find a copy of classical chinese or japanese literature that actually makes chronological or symbolic sense. like i've read a romance of three kingdoms; the more literally sourced it is the weirder that **** gets. linguistically speaking... localization is the more accurate equivalent because in writing comparison, it's like being a pseudo-intellectual with a thesaurus instead a trained writer imo. ur kinda confusing localization for american sanitation/censorship. localization = conceptual and dialect equivalence, and dubs are to avoid "this word is a kinda um... well it's really sort of... idk man but here's our best shot". it's never intended to be the source material in english--that's impossible--romance language is fundamentally incompatible at least in the sense of perfect source replication
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:58 pm

Well, you're right that the quality of dubbing is getting better. A lack of younger audiences seeking anime is helping that portion. But the moment you have Funimation making complete idiots and numps out of themselves, they're not really in a position where they find themselves too interested in saying they shouldn't

https://archive.is/SbkI9
https://archive.is/c79On
https://archive.is/iVB2B

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEXurYaIHao

this was about two years or so back when gamergate was still relevant and the boogieman of cucks before trump

the dragon maid dub that sprinkles words straight out of tumblr, slut shame this, patriarchy there.

There's no reason to have ever injected politics for the sake of it, and their reaction to complaints is very obvious that they're the exact kind of people detached from reality many people have come to mock. I don't like funimation and hope they go under for perverting dubbing with politics. Not everyone cares about this, most people care to get away from it as I myself have come to understand.

In short, they've put politics in dubs for no good reason and I think your exclusionary detailing is also bad.

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Lamby » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:14 pm

those are actually really funny

now i like them more

no but seriously, also media is inherently political. idk where people get this notion politics are something you can separate from fiction, because any media you could mention i could deconstruct for you

some politics really only amount to base desires or hot button trends, but they're inseparable from society and whether you're doing art, writing, rewriting, or music, you're saying something to someone even if it's for popcorn value. i get criticizing stuff, but i don't understand the doomsayer stuff you say, it's a little... not constructive but w/e, cuz..

just cartoons love
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:44 pm

"idk where people get this notion politics are something you can separate from fiction"

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You're not entirely wrong but you are mostly. Yes, it's easy to draw and see the politics in many things but there comes a fine line you don't cross in that regard. Usually that line is bringing real world politics, movements, and other such phrases that wont have any meaning in a year at best, 5 years definitely.

It's the equivalent of a media using an old but recognizable meme from 2009.

I mean hell, even South Park said they'd lay off of Trump jokes. I'm actually a little upset about that because they actually made some of the best ones instead of "Trump is Hitler, he will kill all minorities and break into our houses and physically throw people over the wall." But the point here is that the oversaturation of those "jokes" made a cartoon known for taking the piss out of everyone and anyone exhausted.

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Lamby » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:23 pm

being that my education is in fiction and writing and teaching it, tbh there's been no line since 1750. like it's difficult to pop that modern bubble, but, i don't know what you're consuming in the last century that you'd say that. if it seems you don't have cultural or historical context or the proper experience to identify the allegory or actual mentions. books have done it ages, animation since WW2 animations were actual propaganda. even comics have crossed that line as far back as 1940; superman, metal men, the doom patrol. what are you talking about? animation just moves; there isn't a line unless it's ethically abhorrent or dangerous

the imaginary political line is only really talked about by people who'd prefer the social status quo. "i don't want to see these politics" is itself a political statement. fiction is always influenced by contemporary society; like what animation besides pre-k television doesn't in some way. even not reflecting modern society is an unspoken argument

i hate to pull the "i'm more academically qualified in this instance" but

i am

i'm arguing not certain politics are valid, i'm arguing you're upset by something kinda irrelevant. BECAUSE politics are contemporary, they together with pop culture, and whatever aren't permanent, and it's a good thing to make people think even if it's seemingly "politics because politics," which doesn't exist. private business doesn't do anything arbitrary. if some creator takes a certain direction, there aren't political strings operating them--i mean are people in cosplay storming funimation until they add certain things? if it's so mocked why worry about it? wouldn't it eventually become a financial liability? not like popular anime won't redub it 100 times or affects the source. eventually whoever is annoying you will be replaced. it's not like you're being brainwashed through cartoon hypnosis

but i think this is getting way off topic and i'm just repeating myself. like i get you i guess but idk if the magnitude of your complaints really correlate to the real world fiction business. i'm not saying it doesn't happen, that south park thing is pretty unnecessary and i agree, but ur like kinda aggressive and paranoid about it. my beliefs don't interfere with enjoying cartoons because i don't get emotionally attached to much and am pretty nihilist. i'll leave u alone now sry
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crazo, whoever, i don't watch much current animation so

tell me things to see pls <3
Last edited by Lamby on Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:03 am

Is it you or your education that makes you to think that people who prefer the status quo want entertainment that offers an escape from the real world? Good grief, whatever kind of education you're getting is giving you a false sense of reality. Because I can tell you right now, people get sick of seeing politics very fast. I do in fact understand that political themes are indeed present in animation, my last post should have been as telling but it seems like you need some remedial in reading comprehension.

The kind of message funimation is pushing has an effect, and it's not what they want. The only people they're impressing are the same harpies, and the fans of such series wind up involved in something that before didn't have anything to do with them at all or mattered. Since you were so kind as to mention literature, I have no reason not to bring up just how terrible of an effect this has on comic books. I could go on and on about how obvious they were, or I could name the ones that are already canned. Which would you prefer?

If you want to make a message, you have to avoid making one that can be seen as dated later down the line. It's no doubt that a cartoon like steven universe or star vs have political messages they're making. But you don't exactly have Garnet in a black lives matter t-shirt telling Steven he should destroy the police station.

All your education has given you is an argument for the rationalization of these kinds of perversions into entertainment, It's nothing but propaganda at this level. If this is what you got out of that college you should ask for your money back.
---
Edit: Given that you added two extra paragraphs, I'm responding to that seperately.

"Which doesn't exist"

Let me guess, your college taught you that one right?

Now then, why worry about it? I'm not the one who's worried at all, someone like me has more to gain out of this. It's caused a reaction that has made more people hate this attempt at shoving it in front of peoples faces. Why should an anime fan care about gamergate, or patriarchy? Well they didn't until now, and more often than not it hasn't had the effect the people making this decision would have wanted. If it did, you wouldn't have people from funimation acting the way they did in those archived links.

Also, do you have a reason for telling me everything you did in that last paragraph?

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Crazo3077 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:54 am

I was excited to reply, but honestly you didn't give me much to work with.

This is mostly a response to viewtopic.php?f=11&t=47229&start=350#p1617061 , but includes some notions beyond it.

Here's a list of easy responses:
  • Actions of VAs do not represent companies. Funimation's voice staff are not representatives of the company. Representatives of the company would include people like Tara McKinney (@paraparatara), who presents Funimation's content at conventions. I've met her and she's a cool chick.
  • Companies can take political positions, or can use political language as framing devices, either to build character details or to be topical.
  • Also it is Prison School. With mature rated content, or depending on the series-specific dubbing team, they may use more loose language. The Shin-Chan dub for example is almost entirely improve, and I love that dub. But Prison School is for people with...unique tastes. I can't feel bad if they don't get a faithful dub.
  • Dragon Maid using language from tumblr is the result of tumblr being a platform where Funimation can read what fans of anime think and feel. Funimation loves social media. Also the specific terms "slut shame" and "patriarchy" exist outside of tumblr, and even pre-date major web cultures. So calm down.
  • People detached from reality? And who like anime? Do tell more.

I'm seeing your only complaint about quality control is political references, and you're making it sound like so much great and deliberate effort is put into it. Do you know how easy it is to make a political reference? References are easy, especially when looking for fluff to add to a line. If the voice team has political positions, that's fine. Everyone is allowed to. But even if they're apolitical, these jokes or references are really easy.

What's weird is that your perspective on political humor is either very dated or very limited. Like again, "tumblr terms" existed before tumblr, and jokes about Trump have kinda exhausted themselves. And anime itself hasn't exactly been apolitical from a Japanese perspective. Aside from many realistic depictions of Trump in anime and manga, even Studio Trigger's Inferno Cop showed that there was a feeling to express: https://youtu.be/ch2ePSukZIc?t=1m48s

But honestly, I'm not seeing an argument about my terrible opinions being made clear. Prison School isn't exactly a strong example, and the Dragon Maid detailing wasn't very specific. You kinda just got stuck on politics. And you're right, plenty of references can be dated, but you know what else is dated? Seasonal anime. Unless they fit in a timeless setting, with absolutely no advanced technology, a series is bound by the time period it was made. Cowboy Bebop has a whole episode about finding a betamax player. ReLIFE has an adult character note how when he was in high school they weren't allowed to have cellphones out. The type of reference isn't what makes something dated: the time period does.
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Jeffery Mewtamer » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:26 pm

In all fairness, even when Cowboy Bebop was new, VHS was on its way out and few in the target audience would be old enough to remember the VHS vs Beta format wars, and I suspect the intention was for most audience members to be as baffled as Jet and Spike when it's revealed the player they got is the wrong kind, with only older viewers and a few really geeky viewers versed in the history of modern technology sharing a laugh with Ed.

And if Tumblr is influencing wording choices as greatly as Triert seems to think, here's something to consider: The Japanese counterpart of the millenials likely have their equivalent of Tumblr if Tumblr itself doesn't have a sizeable Japanese user base. Japanese Tumblr likely has lots of young people getting into Internet arguments over contemporary issues permeating Japanese news. Japanese companies are likely using Japanese social media for market research and promotion purposes, and this could be influencing the language used in the Japanese dubs of modern anime.

Considering that your average anime fan, even the ones knowledgeable enough to know when a 4Kids tier dubber is pulling their xenophobic and censorship happy ******** only has a cursory understanding of Japanese culture and cares nothing for current events across the pacific unless it's related to their favorite mangaka, anime studio, or Japanese game developer, even cursory references to Japanese current events and Japanese web culture could be lost in translation by the one man teams that commonly do translation for scanlations and fansubs.

Now, a company like Funimation, who likely has a sizeable number of professional translators and interpretors on staff, some of whom might be of Japanese heritage, and who has a vested interested in keeping abreast of the situation in Japan, or at least more of one than the average English speaking anime viewer, they might actually have people who can pick up on how the Japanese script is influenced by Japanese current events and Japanese web culture. Like many other things in foreign media, such references might not make much sense translated verbatim or would be lost on even the hardest of hardcore American Otaku, and trying to translate as if you were unaware of such effects might give a very different feel to the English dub. Trying to replace references to Japanese Current events and web culture with equivalent references from American current events and web culture is one option to try and emulate the same feel in a way an American audience would understand, though admittedly, such can backfire, and there are probably some viewers who would prefer such get lost in translation.

TLDR: Unless you're plugged-in to Japanese News and Web Culture, how do you know the Japanese Dub isn't as flavor of the day political as the English dub and the fansubs didn't just lose that context in translation?

As for South Park, while I've never watched the show as regularly as I'd like(probably doesn't help that it is on a network I seldom watched even when my television viewing was at its peak) and always got distracted by other things whenever I tried to marathon the backlog, hasn't that show always lampooned whatever was going on in the news and media at the time of an episode's writing? Surely, one could go back to the earliest episodes and find references to then current events that many present day viewers don't remember or were too young to remember when those episodes first aired.
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:40 pm

At least one of the people mentioned here was an ADR Engineer, the other an ADR Script writer and Director. They're not just voice actors.

Yes, you're right that they can and are free to do that. But what we have going on here is the companies rewriting how characters are entirely and injecting their own political views. This whole thing is stupid and I've done my best to explain it to you, it's still going to be stupid even after this talk is done. I know the kind of politics you support, it's not surprising at all you outright admit you would say "i can't feel bad if they don't get a faithful dub."

You want to know something that isn't dated? Doing the same kind of crap twice.

"Even Inferno Cop showed there was a feeling to express." The message was clear, insult the USA and get cut in half by a cropped hand.

---

Jeffery, they use tumblr too. But they use tumblr to share their art or as a way to host it before linking it back to their pixiv. Now the theorized japanese tumblr where people get into arguments isn't a tumblr at all. It's 2chan/Futaba Channel, and given that it's an imageboard it's safe to assume they're a lot unlike tumblr.

Now the situation you posted of current events would make sense if that was anything close to what was going on with the Prison School dub, it wasn't.

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Crazo3077 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:58 pm

I do want to mention that Mewtamer's issues with 4Kids amuse me, since I'm sure he loves the 4Kids dub of Ojamajo Doremi. :wink:

--

ADR roles are part of the voice staff, not the business staff. That's the distinction. Voice staff can hold personal opinions separate from the business, and even business staff can hold separate opinions. If the business is indifferent to the use of references, they aren't going to care to add it to their guidelines. That's why you may see topical, political references.

You like to do this thing where you're insisting there is great change, but not provide detailed examples. I decided to look for an example myself: I watched the Crunchyroll subtitles and Funimation dub for Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid side by side, choosing Episode 3 as a point where the VAs have had a little more practice with the roles. What did I find?

Not much, honestly. Only once did I find a forced reference, which was changing the description of Fafnir's behavior as a dragon from calling him a shut-in to comparing him to "The Hobbit". And Fafnir's introductory line was changed to make him feel less aggressive and more self-loathing, but I've watched later episodes in the dub, and that is a fluke. I also saw what I considered an improvement, where the expression "I'm a D among dragons." was changed to "I'm a D for Dragon." That's all the major changes.

There were some minor changes, but rarely did they adjust the context or feeling of the line. Tohru and Kanna are almost one-for-one, sometimes even directly quoting the Crunchyroll subtitles. Kobayashi definitely talks more in the English version, but the statements and expressions stay the same, only sometimes giving her a bit more emotion than the Japanese version. So unless you have hangups with one or two genuine line changes, or you're exclusively watching fansubs, there isn't much difference. This is, of course, one example, and Funimation had the time to recognize how popular it was before they started their dub 3 or 4 weeks after premiere, so they may have been more careful with it.

My political positions have nothing to do with why I disregard Prison School. I've seen the previews for it, I know the premise, and I've seen some of the popular scenes. And again, you're hung up on a really dumb line. How unrealistic is for a character who is an entitled girl to associate Gamergate with creepy guys? Like in that moment the girl is actively stating her sense of grandeur in the source material, and the dubbing team decided that she'd have the personality of someone who thinks Gamergate is a one-sided issue about men harassing women. She even sounds like she was just teasing him given how the rest of the dialog follows. How unrealistic is this """""break of immersion"""""?

Like you keep throwing my political positions at me, but you don't even know that I started out on the Pro-Gamergate camp and never went to the opposing side. I just stopped caring. Get the personal BS out of this and learn to observe political situations from outside your existing bias: Gamergate existed as a multi-position multi-perspective issue, where people of different backgrounds held different beliefs. Someone referencing this is not some personal attack on your political beliefs, let alone your existence.

"You want to know something that isn't dated? Doing the same kind of crap twice."

You've given me one example from actual dubbing where they made a political reference, and no evidence to suggest that the framing was inherently negative. I don't know the characters in detail, but to my understanding, the tortured men in Prison School are supposed to be who the audience sympathizes with. So the only one doing anything more than once right now is you, beating the same dead horse.
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:08 pm

https://twitter.com/GSUniverse/status/8 ... 3909483520

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Ivogoji » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:02 pm

Pigeon Man lives.

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:49 pm

I'm glad to see all these callbacks as well, it's good that a show does this so people can trust that it didn't forget the earlier parts of it. Whereas the creators of teen titans go admit they didnt watch any of it but not like that matters because they were already talentless hacks.

So, who likes Rebeltaxi/PanPizza?

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Lamby » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:06 pm

teen titans i don't miss, butchered cyborg and starfire and deathstroke and really everyone into bad anime tropes imo. teen titans go is actually pretty cute and funny once people take a working laxative and realize it's beyond relevant to kids if ur keeping up with the times/have kids/seen a kid/been one. it's hardly stupider than cartoons from my childhood.

arnold looks great. almost feels like it never ended. great sign ya'll
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:10 pm

What makes you say they're bad anime tropes? Because I've seen bad anime tropes in animesque cartoons from this period and I can assure you Teen Titans wasn't anywhere near the level of my life me

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Re: The Animation General

Postby chaoadventures » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:08 pm

Triert wrote:So, who likes Rebeltaxi/PanPizza?

I don't really like reviewers:

They have an overly influential effect on the easily persuaded (there's a reason some "top of the line" game reviewers get money to give a good rating)

Can give skewered info based on the wrong things (sonic was never good/7.8 too much water)

And lastly, they take away the fun part: If something's bad, I like to take it apart myself, no splicing of segments that I get to see while some dude talks, just the whole thing.
"Why wait around for someone else dissect an awful cartoon tomorrow, when you can dissect an awful cartoon yourself today?"

I play Sonic '06 not because it's a good game, but because falling through the ground within my own experience is funny and funnier than just watching it.
But I can also see what things I would like to see improved, and could make it actually good, which helps me give info to something that needs to be critiqued to help it.

I can't really get that out of some dude simply telling me "oh man this show is so bad don't watch it".
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:13 pm

I can understand the easily persuaded portion, I think Pan Pizza doesn't even like Teen Titans Go but he'll say anything he has to in order to get recognized by Cartoon Network.

He's really the only cartoon reviewer I'm subscribed to, I tend to like swimming around reviewers for the more obscure cartoon shows/movies I've watched to see if there was anything I really missed.

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Ivogoji » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:33 pm

I can't watch reviews because I don't have internet.

I just have to snatch what media I can and decide if it was a good investment afterwards.
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Lamby » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:14 pm

tbh ivo you know so much/opinions are so thorough i'd come to you for a review, sugar
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Re: The Animation General

Postby EvilPinkamina » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:06 pm

Animation show reviewers are lame. Really just exist to take the fun out of stuff.

Game reviewers have a lil more base when they're not being paid off. Good game reviewers are good. IGN is bad.
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:13 pm

I'd say both take the fun out of everything given the "sonic was never good" crowd that's formed in recent years.

Jontron and Dunkey are the only people I can say I take seriously these days.

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Re: The Animation General

Postby EvilPinkamina » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:04 am

>take seriously
>jontron and dunkey

pick one
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Re: The Animation General

Postby Triert » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:09 am

Another day Pink.

So was that invader zim movie real or was it a hallucination.

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Re: The Animation General

Postby Crazo3077 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:29 am

I think Teen Titans was suitable for the time, but definitely wouldn't need to come back. Now that anime is genuinely accessible, we don't need anime homages nearly as much. I think the current DC animated movies are doing fine with their uses of the characters.

I genuinely like Pan, but mostly because he is so complicated. The effort he puts into his content feels very real, and I used to binge cycle him, repeating videos regularly, especially his top 10 on animation for gamers. Now I just watch his reviews when he puts them out, and sometimes rewatch old ones when I feel like it. I definitely felt like the Digimon Adventure one though was like a personal attack. (And Nolan from the podcast and I used to chat on Skype. He's neat, but they're all sad boys.)

In reference to Invader Zim, I genuinely cannot watch it anymore. I've tried to watch clips and episodes, and something about either the art of the humor or the pacing just doesn't sit right with me anymore. I'll blame deviantart, but I dunno what it is.
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