The Brexit (Happened)

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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by BlackLuigi7 »

Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:I'll admit universal suffrage alone doesn't do much to address more fundamental issues with our electoral process, but I still find the idea more palatable than a quarter of the population being disenfranchised over a arbitrarily placed age line, especially when there's evidence that disenfranchisement of youths feeds into voter apathy among the youngest who are on the right side of that line.
If being eligible to vote was based on more merit-based criteria, such as requireing a high school diploma, being legally emancipated, or passing the same tests foreign nationals have to take to gain US Citizenship, i would probably not be so bothered, even if it meant a larger portion of the population was barred from voting.
I don't usually like participating in politics because of the drama it brings, but I have a few mins. to kill.

A quarter of the population is being disenfranchised due to age laws, but that same quarter also doesn't have to worry about being drafted, paying taxes, has benefits that cannot be revoked, must be cared for by some form of guardian or guardian(s), are going through a gap of their lives where their brains and bodies are developing at a somewhat alarming rate...etc

The laws are far from arbitrary. They were originally set to 21 for a specific reason, and changed to 18 for an even better reason. Just saying "They live in the USA!" doesn't mean we should give minors the right to vote, just like how I feel we shouldn't give illegal immigrants the right to vote.

You could argue that if a minor was supporting themselves with a job, owned their own domicile, and relied specifically on themselves to essentially live, then they should be able to vote. I would agree with that. However, the amount of minors able to do that are the major outliers. I could only count one person out of the hundered-thousands I knew throughout my life that was a minor, and had the ability to take care of themselves. And it was HARD on them.

I also feel that if they feel like they're facing injustice, that they should step up to the plate and win liberation for themselves. Minors don't need a 20+ year old man to fight for their right to vote, if they don't feel the need to vote themselves.
-----

Anyhow, I live in the USA. Brexit doesn't affect me as much as it does the British, but it obviously affects me, as it affects the whole world.

I'm personally happy that the UK is honoring the wishes of the pollers. There have been some times that I'm aware of, that the poller's opinions on the subject was just thrown out. You have to love that the UK is an actual democracy. The main man David even stepped down because he had differing opinions. Respect.

Also, after seeing the EU's actions after the UK left, such as the "Superstate", and the EU's refusal to even accept Britain's offer to talk before they even decided to put the referendum into effect is kinda telling. Sure, united you are strong, but united you also loose a lot of power to govern yourself. That's why the US had two very bloody civil wars.

And if this superstate is real, and if it does go into effect, the UK might have just dodged a large scale civil war, or the fall of the EU.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

^ I hear Poland intends to resist the EU superstate, somehow they're always involved at the big center of all of this.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by wic. »

JmTsHaW wrote:Image
I have no problem with old ppl votin, but honestly if you refer to someone's legitimate and valid political dissension about a major change as them being "salty" you might not be mature enough to tackle these kinds of things. It's really, really childish.

Anyways, I wasn't too invested in it either way and its not something I feel very passionate about. The only thing that bothers me is how misleading the Leave campaign was. A lot of people voted thinking that the money payed to the EU would be able to go back into their health services, but as time goes on it looks like that won't be happening.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

For the record, most of my anti-ageist beliefs first formed when I was on the opposite side of most of the age lines and have been shaken very little with each line I've crossed, and I don't expect them to change much when I cross the line into being old enough to serve in the senate later this year. That said, I think I'll create a thread on the subject of ageism to avoid taking this thread further off topic.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by strawberry-boyfriend »

^ who cares dude lol

I, personally, find brexit best put by my friend PJ.
"I mean England deserves to burn, we globally let them act like their expansion days were good for the world, but this is really stupid. They should offer to let Scotland and Northern Ireland out since they both voted to stay in the EU, and then sink in their own."

He sent me that text a few days ago and I was doing the ok emoji
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

I will be the first to admit, their expansionist era elevated a lot of countries.

Also, Scotland already voted recently. I would only understand an irish vote at this moment in time.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by strawberry-boyfriend »

sure but their empirical nature ruined the natural development of many countries and then when they bowed out and refused to damage control they caused an obscene amount of instability in many places.

mixed bag, and their "JOLLY GOOD OLD DAY BOYS" attitude to their superiority over the EU and immigrants is a direct showing of their destructive political nature.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

strawberry-boyfriend wrote:sure but their empirical nature ruined the natural development of many countries and then when they bowed out and refused to damage control they caused an obscene amount of instability in many places.
For once I can't actually argue against something since it isn't a matter of ideals so much as it is cause and effect.
strawberry-boyfriend wrote:mixed bag, and their "JOLLY GOOD OLD DAY BOYS" attitude to their superiority over the EU and immigrants is a direct showing of their destructive political nature.
I'll need you to explain the "JOLLY GOOD OLD DAY BOYS" attitude, I don't know if I mentioned it before but the wave of immigrants into the EU isn't something anyone should be paying for.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by strawberry-boyfriend »

The English populace have a sense of superiority over immigrants and even other European countries, and their desire to see themselves as a superpower again accounts for part of the brexit vote.

Other parts include Boris Johnson literally lying 100% about where the EU money would go, and protests votes that the populace "didn't think would matter, and now regret".
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

I think the voter regret is overblown personally.

Though, what happened with all this money that people are talking about? How did he lie about where the money will go? The bus says it should go back to the NHS, so where is it going to go then?

That aside, I don't see any problem with the brits wanting to assert themselves as a superpower again.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by strawberry-boyfriend »

Boris said it would go there, yes, then went on the news and said it absolutely will not.

Regret may or may not be overblown but it's also a hilarious fact of the vote, and considering 49/51 it's not insignificant.

That is an opinion so it's not worth discussing.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

I'd like the video of him admitting as much.

Also, it was 48/52 last I recall
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by strawberry-boyfriend »

Not to be rude but look that up yourself, there's a lot on it. Samantha Bee's show had a bit about it, it was on English morning news, there's articles on it, like in The Guardian, NPR was discussing it. If you're gonna be obstinate I can but I don't want to fish around or have you call bias on actual facts. That's why Boris likely won't be PM, England isn't happy with those lies.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

Actually it is rude, if it's not that hard to find. Then it shouldn't be that hard to prove either. I looked it up on my own but came up rather short, so I'm asking the person making the claim this time to provide the proof instead.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by mintdrop »

^
the way he's portrayed in the media makes him seem like a joke. a fool. a character. literally the first footage on the friday after the vote was him walking out of his office and being booed, people shouting "shame on you boris!"; the image that comes to mind is him on the zipwire looking like an idiot. not to mention that his own father disagrees with him on policies, and the fact that he's gone back on his promises and how obvious it is that he supported the leave vote just so that he could gain support - he didnt actually want to leave the eu.

trust me, the mood here is that people do not want boris johnson as pm.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

Ravenyte wrote:the way he's portrayed in the media makes him seem like a joke. a fool. a character.
There has never been a more appropriate time than now to call your media and leftist media in general propaganda right now.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by mintdrop »

"leftist media"

he does it to himself! whenever the bbc (neutral) shows footage of him he seems like a joke. literally no one you talk to takes him seriously. people on the bbc who are interviewed often poke fun at boris. it's not some "left-wing conspiracy" or "propaganda". if you wanna talk about propaganda, look at the daily mail or idk, nigel farage maybe?

and can you maybe not cherry-pick my posts, maybe reply to the entire thing? it's kind of telling that you don't really know what to say, and it's really annoying and childish. thanks.
Last edited by mintdrop on Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by strawberry-boyfriend »

burden of proof rests on whoever cares, but

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0nTrs-HuuUc
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-eu-liars
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/boris-johnson- ... us-1567413
Idk there's more just look up Boris Johnson lying

and the fact that you're talking about leftist propaganda in the media kind of makes me think this is particularly a waste of time
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by wic. »

Goat wrote:Actually it is rude, if it's not that hard to find. Then it shouldn't be that hard to prove either. I looked it up on my own but came up rather short, so I'm asking the person making the claim this time to provide the proof instead.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 99906.html

you didn't look too hard tbh
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

Ravenyte wrote:"leftist media"
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/670266 ... internship
wic. wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 99906.html

you didn't look too hard tbh
Strawberry said Boris, not Nigel

As for strawberry.

This is Nigel again admitting that the 350m can't be assured to go to Nigel in the youtube link.

The second link and third link don't really support Boris saying what you said either. Did everyone here mean that Nigel was the one backtracking on his promises?
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by strawberry-boyfriend »

Fair enough, changes nothing

EDIT: It changes context slightly but not really substance, point is the Leave EU campaign lied
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Goat »

Ravenyte wrote:literally the first footage on the friday after the vote was him walking out of his office and being booed, people shouting "shame on you boris!"; the image that comes to mind is him on the zipwire looking like an idiot. not to mention that his own father disagrees with him on policies, and the fact that he's gone back on his promises and how obvious it is that he supported the leave vote just so that he could gain support - he didnt actually want to leave the eu.

trust me, the mood here is that people do not want boris johnson as pm.
People being upset with the person elected democratically, people finding out ways to continue to mock him. His father disagrees with him, your next statement hasn't really held as much ground as it could whereas say it could if Nigel Farage was the one we would focus on. Unreleased column and estimation on your later statement.

Well the only thing I really find worth talking about here is how far we can plausibly prove his support for the EU went really. Also, I would imagine that you don't speak for the majority of your country given that most of you voted to leave
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by wic. »

Ravenyte wrote:trust me, the mood here is that people do not want boris johnson as pm.
even boris johnson doesn't want boris johnson to be pm
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Re: The Brexit (Happened)

Post by Flame »

Regardless of who said the "money will go towards the NHS" thing, not a single person from the Leave party dared say anything to the contrary until after the referendum, where Farage broke the bad news. The fallout has been BAD, I mean I can only provide anecdotal evidence but there have been a lot of people that have been pissed off that they had been lied to here.

And regarding the whole "the UK will be alright" edit earlier in the thread, I'll say that if Scotland and Ireland don't leave, my mind will be blown. They have every right to hold referendums and leave; this isn't the first time since Scotland's last referendum that we've totally denied a vote that the entire country voted for because England wanted something else; in the last election pretty much every area in Scotland voted for the SNP, but because England wanted the Tories, the Conservatives got into power.

As for England? Considering the time it's going to take to stabilise and bring up the economy again, as well as the uncertainty and the instability of some people who live here that aren't necessarily from here (not to mention those who have had children here) and the potential influx of English people kicked out of EU countries over what happened, the loss of jobs due to the economic issues and the potential fall of aggregate demand which constitutes an even harsher potential fall in the economy, it's impossible to say that anything is concrete. We're in a period of instability and uncertainty, and no-one can guarantee anything - I can't guarantee that we won't stabilise and be perfectly fine in a few years, and you can't guarantee that we'll be perfectly fine, recover from all our problems, and become stronger. Fear over what happens next is quite justified, even if certain media outlets are pushing it a bit hard.

Boris did want Boris to become Prime Minister, but Michael Gove decided to kick him down and stand atop his corpse to start his own bid.
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