Entertainment and Art

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Entertainment and Art

Post by Goat » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:35 am

Image

This came to mind recently and may or may not be influenced by a recent discussion.

A toddler who jingles keys can be entertained but no one would ever call it art.

A pile of trash can be called art but no one will be entertained.

In the first statement and second I bring up an extreme in using the jingling keys and toddler as I do in the second with trash, I ask people to give their input on the subject.
Last edited by Goat on Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Rajikaru » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:55 am

If you have to explain the meaning of your art, if it's so convoluted and hidden in metaphors that people can't perceive it on their own, then it's not art. It's what you think art is, and what you think art is is wrong.

That's all I really have to say on the topic of art as a subject.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by wic. » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:49 pm

^"Art is subjective but I, an arrogant kid, can tell you what is art what isn't art."

Whenever I hear this discussion, I tend to point out Merzbow. Merzbow is great, because he's made a career as a musical artist by releasing music that sounds like this.

Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't mean it loses it's artistic value/integrity. If anything, it's more of a reflection on the viewer as opposed to the art.
Last edited by wic. on Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by strawberry-boyfriend » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:54 pm

Art is subjective, and like the funniest way to describe it is "Fountain", in which Duchamp gave a urinal to a museum and argued it was art, as like a protest thing, but it kind of got taken seriously, especially in the context of Duchamp. It's called "avant-grade".

There's also music including children performing even poorly or atonally, and sculpture using trash, some of which are really interesting and entertaining.

Also there are PLENTY of great works of art that are abstract, metaphorical, indirect, or altogether difficult. Like Tom Waits' discography or David Lynch's films. The thing is you explaining your art ruins it more often than not, but that doesn't invalidate it as art, just makes you an untrusting creator. Which can be valid. My friend writes great poetry about toxic relationships and abuse but she's afraid and has been vindicated in said fear of people reading it as affection or 'a difficult romance'.

Really art is great because it can be a lot of things, but I personally find trying to define art to be really really reductive because it's ignoring the most important part of art, which is the dynamic between creation and consumption, and that's such a fluid and complex thing that it can entail anything and trying to shutdown one person's appreciation of art in place of your own sucks.

Doesn't stop me from making fun of my friends when I disagree with their taste but I respect their rights to feel however about whatever.

My friend Mary Claire likes merzbow but like if you're going for ambient noise why not go straight to Bulls of Heaven is my feeling on it.
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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Flame » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:04 pm

Art is a term I have difficulty with. I've been to numerous museums and just... haven't gotten it. I don't see the artistry. I understand that it's pretty subjective, what's considered "art", so though I may make fun of it a bit, I do also recognise that it's (for the most part) moreso me not getting it than it not being worth something.

In terms of what I would consider art, I must admit I quite like Crass as a band. Don't get me wrong, it's not easy listening and they freak me out with some of their tracks, but I see the integrity and what it's all about and I understand. Their song "Reality Asylum" (Content warning, it's not for the faint of heart) is one that hit me hard, being raised in a country with so many values taken from religion.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Rajikaru » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:27 pm

wic. wrote:^"Art is subjective but I, an arrogant kid, can tell you what is are what isn't art."
Condescending tone aside (**** you too, buddy), if you have a problem with the way I see art, then that's your problem, not mine. It's my personal opinion that if it has to be explained, then it's not what i believe is art.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by wic. » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:28 pm

strawberry-boyfriend wrote:Art is subjective, and like the funniest way to describe it is "Fountain", in which Duchamp gave a urinal to a museum and argued it was art, as like a protest thing, but it kind of got taken seriously, especially in the context of Duchamp. It's called "avant-grade".

There's also music including children performing even poorly or atonally, and sculpture using trash, some of which are really interesting and entertaining.

Also there are PLENTY of great works of art that are abstract, metaphorical, indirect, or altogether difficult. Like Tom Waits' discography or David Lynch's films. The thing is you explaining your art ruins it more often than not, but that doesn't invalidate it as art, just makes you an untrusting creator. Which can be valid. My friend writes great poetry about toxic relationships and abuse but she's afraid and has been vindicated in said fear of people reading it as affection or 'a difficult romance'.

Really art is great because it can be a lot of things, but I personally find trying to define art to be really really reductive because it's ignoring the most important part of art, which is the dynamic between creation and consumption, and that's such a fluid and complex thing that it can entail anything and trying to shutdown one person's appreciation of art in place of your own sucks.

Doesn't stop me from making fun of my friends when I disagree with their taste but I respect their rights to feel however about whatever.

My friend Mary Claire likes merzbow but like if you're going for ambient noise why not go straight to Bulls of Heaven is my feeling on it.
Bull of Heaven is great and they have crazy output, but I like Merzbow's more aggressive and in your face stuff as opposed to his ambient stuff. I also really love his work with Xiu Xiu and Boris. If I'm gonna go ambient noise I tend to go with Black Swan Network or Nils Frahm, or Tim Hecker.

Tom Wait's stuff is hella underrated, Rain Dogs is up there with one of my fave albums of the 80s, with Hounds of Love.
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wic. wrote:^"Art is subjective but I, an arrogant kid, can tell you what is art what isn't art."
Condescending tone aside, if you have a problem with the way I see art, then that's your problem, not mine. It's my personal opinion that if it has to be explained, then it's not what i believe is art.
I have no problem with it, it just makes you look ignorant.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Rajikaru » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:33 pm

wic. wrote:
I have no problem with it, it just makes you look ignorant.
It doesn't.

And to make my point clear, if the art in question doesn't have a purpose, or its purpose is to not have a purpose, then that's fine. But if you're an artist just throwing colours on a canvas at random and trying to give it meaning, that doesn't really fit my definition of art.
Last edited by Rajikaru on Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by strawberry-boyfriend » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:34 pm

Tim hecker is my "I'm ****ing a witch, covered in virgin blood, practicing strangulation on a blood moon" music
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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Goat » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:39 pm

In the time it took me to try and write my next post a can of worms was opened.

Cut the crap wic and get back on topic without acting like a complete snob

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by wic. » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:41 pm

strawberry-boyfriend wrote:Tim hecker is my "I'm ****ing a witch, covered in virgin blood, practicing strangulation on a blood moon" music
them virgin vibes boy
Goat wrote:In the time it took me to try and write my next post a can of worms was opened.

Cut the crap wic and get back on topic without acting like a complete snob
And I'm the one who should cut the crap when all of my posts contributed to the topic, while two of Nova's posts were just responses to me that added nothing? (before they were edited)

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Goat » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:44 pm

If you can't avoid calling him ignorant or mocking him why post at all

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by strawberry-boyfriend » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:45 pm

I agree why should anyone post what an absolute waste of time when we could be listening to the metal gear solid v soundtrack
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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Rajikaru » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:47 pm

wic. wrote:
And I'm the one who should cut the crap when all of my posts contributed to the topic, while two of Nova's posts were just responses to me that added nothing? (before they were edited)
Not to play the whole "You started it" game, but, you did start it. My post was completely on-topic, you responded in kind, I responded to your response, et cetera. Your original post added nothing, it just was talking smack about my post. If you think you're on-topic, actually be on-topic. Discuss the topic. Nobody's forcing you to reply to what I say.

I agree why should anyone post what an absolute waste of time when we could be listening to the metal gear solid v soundtrack
Is Snake Eater on that soundtrack? if it isn't I want no part of it

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by strawberry-boyfriend » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:49 pm

yeah it's an unlockable
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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Rajikaru » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:49 pm

ok then it's great

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by wic. » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:49 pm

Goat wrote:If you can't avoid calling him ignorant or mocking him why post at all
You're the one derailing the thread at this point, and saying "you look ignorant" doesn't mean that person actually is.
And, anyways, I said earlier that art is subjective. The fact that he's clarified (through many edits) that he has a personal definition of what is/isn't art, I don't care. I was only bothered when he was speaking in absolutes. He was speaking in absolutes in his frist post, not as an opinion, which is why I called him arrogant. Because if you think you can define what is/isn't art for everyone, which was what I got from that first post, you're pretty ******' arrogant.
Nova! wrote:Not to play the whole "You started it" game, but, you did start it. My post was completely on-topic, you responded in kind, I responded to your response, et cetera. Your original post added nothing, it just was talking smack about my post. If you think you're on-topic, actually be on-topic. Discuss the topic. Nobody's forcing you to reply to what I say.
Literally 1/3 of my original post is directed at you lmfao, how did it add nothing?
Last edited by wic. on Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by strawberry-boyfriend » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:51 pm

I thought I was supposed to be the ****poster.... :chaocry:
Last edited by strawberry-boyfriend on Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Rajikaru » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:53 pm

wic. wrote:
Goat wrote:If you can't avoid calling him ignorant or mocking him why post at all
You're the one derailing the thread at this point, and saying "you look ignorant" doesn't mean that person actually is.
And, anyways, I said earlier that art is subjective. The fact that he's clarified (through many edits) that he has a personal definition of what is/isn't art, I don't care. I was only bothered when he was speaking in absolutes. He was speaking in absolutes in his frist post, not as an opinion, which is why I called him arrogant. Because if you think you can define what is/isn't art for everyone, which was what I got from that first post, you're pretty ******' arrogant.
Nova! wrote:Not to play the whole "You started it" game, but, you did start it. My post was completely on-topic, you responded in kind, I responded to your response, et cetera. Your original post added nothing, it just was talking smack about my post. If you think you're on-topic, actually be on-topic. Discuss the topic. Nobody's forcing you to reply to what I say.
Literally 1/3 of my original post is directed at you lmfao, how did it add nothing?

Stop calling people arrogant and get on topic if you want to be on topic. You're the only person derailing the thread at this point. Treedirt, OP, asked you to get back on-topic, and you're trying to argue with him.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by chaoadventures » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:09 pm

What I like:
Image

What I don't:

*Insert painting with ""deep meaning"".*

Long story short, I don't like poems.

They all involve someone attempting to explain a chair, or a bird, or agony, or joy, or anything really.
The problem is that they keep trying to explain something that could be explained in one or two sentences...

With one or two paragraphs. Some highly regarded paintings hung in museums and stuff, are just that in well, painting form.

Same goes for music (Although some songs can be nice regardless of the "meaning").

JUST GET TO THE DANG POINT. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME?

While I can sit down and figure it out myself, the answer was probably that the writer liked their cat or something.

And my reaction is usually like:

"That's great. Y'know if you weren't so busy telling me what specific snake its stripes reminded you of and not actually telling me it was a cat to begin with,
you could have told me so much more about you and your cat. But you didn't. I had to spend like an hour not knowing you were even talking about your cat."

And for paintings, I'd just be like, "Why didn't you just give that guy a smile instead of making me "interpret" the sun as happiness?"

Then there's people being "creative" by taking a picture and spinning it "up down and all around".

"I don't even care what you say. This is a picture of a room, that I, most likely, could have taken and then put upside down. There's nothing special about it. I know how to rotate my camera too."

They all keep pretending there's more to it then there actually is.
Image

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by BlackLuigi7 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:28 pm

This topic is completely subjective, and literal pages upon pages of many a college student's projects are devoted to it. We're not going to get anything right, or find the beat-all end-all statement to solve this idea on a forum about electronic pets.
So I feel if people have differing attitudes about it, the main way to NOT talk about your ideas is to insult anyone based on theirs. How do you expect someone to take your ideas seriously if you don't take other's as seriously? That really won't solve anything or answer any questions when everything is subjective anyways.

Anyhow, I feel like anything that was made specifically to try to evoke emotion and ideas in others, despite whether or not the creator will get personal gain from it, can be considered art.

This obviously doesn't extend to what kids do, because most of the time, kids don't do anything to try to evoke emotion in themselves, and if they do it to anyone around them, most of the time it is for selfish reasons.
The reason I included the thing about personal gain is because I feel if someone is making something SPECIFICALLY to make money, instead of doing it to evoke emotion, their art loses its integrity. They are no longer trying to please the masses to please the masses. They are doing it for themselves.

This is why the urinal was accepted into a museum as an art piece. It wasn't done for money. It wasn't just something that no one would care about. It was an art piece about the protest of art, and it was made to evoke emotion and ideas in people. The same idea extends to people who just toss paint on a canvas, or people who make poetry. Everything can be art, but everything can also not be art.

That's what I think, anyways. It's a little hard to write up all this really quick, because it's something I don't really think about anymore.
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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Goat » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:45 pm

Personally art needs a second renaissance, the spectrum for what has been called art has given way for having a urinal be accepted into a museum as something taken seriously. It seems like what people call "modern art" should have been a subgenre of art instead of be used to define art itself and have it become such a ridiculous and disgusting medium where a wooden sculpture can lose to a stone statue performing self fellatio on itself.

You don't see professional chefs serving trash as food, why don't we bring back the old standards that art used to have and the integrity that came with it? It doesn't matter if people feel excluded, true art isn't something that should have ever been a thing that anyone could have done. Just because beauty can be in the eye of the beholder doesn't mean personal statements should be as half assed and or literally made with trash followed by MORE trash and continued with trash as they are now and still treated as seriously. But that's a problem with the entire art industry at this point.

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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Skonia » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:11 pm

no opinion is right or wrong on the subject of entertainment or art, because it is SO subjective. people have so many different tastes and reasons why something is art or entertaining to them that i think its hard to really establish anything beyond what genre something is.

but my art is the best B)
y'all...
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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by Mamkute » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:27 pm

Wic and Nova! You two are being very immature, please stop. The who started question is even worse. Some very interesting points have been raised in this topic, including by both of you. And all of this post editing makes deciphering things difficult (since it sounds like substantive edits were made.)

Wic, you could respond politely to Nova's opinion, instead of resorting to insults. Insults are generally the worst way of making a point, instead of maybe politely sharing your disagreements, and possibly even changing an opinion.

Nova, please stay on topic, and not go into childish arguing.

Goat, I guess please refrain from minimodding (although your post seemingly did make things better, after it briefly made things worse.)

I really would not enjoy locking this topic.
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Re: Entertainment and Art

Post by strawberry-boyfriend » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:23 pm

What about me Mamkute! :surprise:
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