The trans public bathroom thing [no fite]
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
i want to take a group pee with my friends in the boys bathroom with my not dick
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
I hope it's a good pee
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
i had a bottle water of today it'll be good i promsie
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
thread is on-topic again
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
thread is saved
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Teenagers have done worse for less Minty, and Bunelody, your accusations make discussion impossible with you.
Last edited by Triert on Mon May 22, 2017 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
You're telling me not to discuss it so I guess you're making discussion impossible too
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
[quote="Triert"][/quote]
(you)
(you)
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Triert wrote:This is the wrong place to have this talk and you know it.
Triert wrote:If you want to continue this discussion seperate from the current one make another topic for that topic specifically.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
why do i gotta make the topic? I'm not the one who finds it wrong to discuss it here.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
I made this topic about something local yet notable to the nation I happen to live in that concerned me and that I thought people here could have a mature, civil discussion about.
If this cannot be mature, civil, or an open actual discussion, then let's end it before it gets out of hand any more than it has. Unless this can be taken seriously. Like, glad you guys are having fun but that's not the point here. And this isn't the first time I've had to put something along the lines of "get along" in a topic's OP, and it's not the first time it hasn't worked.
I'm just a little disappointed is all.
If this cannot be mature, civil, or an open actual discussion, then let's end it before it gets out of hand any more than it has. Unless this can be taken seriously. Like, glad you guys are having fun but that's not the point here. And this isn't the first time I've had to put something along the lines of "get along" in a topic's OP, and it's not the first time it hasn't worked.
I'm just a little disappointed is all.
- Nano
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
I dunno, I think they're pretty ontopic if
Either way let's cool it down a bit everyone.
is considered ontopic.Triert wrote:That comparison would work if people were born and could become things that were close to red and blue and other shades of colors instead of XX and XY. We're not clownfish, wrasses, moray eels, or gobies. People who have those disorders should seek hormonal treatment that helps push them to what they were born as instead of imbalancing themselves.
People don't break their arm more when their arm is already broken do they?
Either way let's cool it down a bit everyone.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
I'll end my discussion in this thread but triert is free to message me or make his own thread if he wants to actually discuss it
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Seeing as how I only have myself to blame I'll excuse myself.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
You sure do a great job of assuming that one's biology has some sort of intrinsic value, in spite of all of its hindrances and imperfections.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Apparently, Triert doesn't actually know anything and is bigoted toward transgender people, as I determined. Regarding the topic, I don't see any reason for why they shouldn't be able to use the bathrooms that they would be more comfortable with.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Personally, I've yet to hear a convincing argument for maintaining segregation of public restrooms, nor am I convinced the majority of the population actually gives a damn whether restrooms are segregated or not.
In my experience, unless you're being an attention *****, most people don't give a damn what other's do, and unless you're doing something genuinely morally reprehensible, most of the outcry for doing things outside socially accepted behavior comes from a voacal minority, not the majority, and even when a dichotomy is true, apathy is often the plurality.
I know anecdotes are weak evidence, but I live in a small town where local politics are dominated by black v. white in the racial sense, the majority of people are some flavor of protestant Christian, and the gossip mills and the drama they generate constitute the primary form of entertainment outside of the Internet. And yet, outside of my family, no one commented when I switched from wearing mens' t-shirts to wearing womens' tunics and very few have commented on my decision to stop wearing shoes(and when people do comment on my choice of footwear, its usually curiosity rather than criticism that motivates their comments). Now, I suspect barefooters are at least as rare as homosexuals or transsexuals, and unlike those groups, barefooters actually have an identifying feature any reasonably observant person can pick out, and I've heard of no argument to suggest barefooting might not be a conscious choice. Similarly, I suspect most people don't care about the bathroom habits of others as long as they aren't interfering in their own bathroom habits.
As to the common arguments in favor of the status quo regarding bathrooms:
Argument: They've always been segregated by sex.
Counter argument: While I confess appeal to tradition can be a powerful tool of persuasion, especially when trying to convince older generations, it's a fairly weak argument by itself, and works best in cases of affirming a tradition that makes sense to convince people to reject a nonsensical tradition. Plus, this argument ignores the fact that public bathrooms as we know them are a very modern invention, and that similar arguments were used to defend other things that were once status quo but are now reviled.
Argument: Privacy.
Counter argument: The vast majority of multiple-occupancy public restrooms already have stalls with locking doors, and thus offer plenty of privacy. I fail to comprehend how segregation of restrooms adds additional privacy that locking stalls don't. Now, if you are arguing in favor of requiring public restrooms that don't already have locking stalls to have such installed, requiring that stalls have smaller gaps between their walls and the floor/ceiling, mandating broken locks be replaced in a timely fashion, or requiring full stalls enclosing urinals, this argument might hold water. As for people with shy bladders, nothing short of single occupancy restrooms or a cure for their psychological block are likely to help them, and buildings with multiple-occupancy restrooms generally see too much human traffic for single-occupancy restrooms to be sufficient for demand(and from what I've heard, many public schools already suffer from too few stalls to handle peak demand).
Argument: Rapists.
Counterargument: Not trying to downplay the problem of rape, but not everything ties into that problem, and acting as if everything does makes it harder to identify issues genuinely related to the problem and makes it harder for people not directly affected by the problem to take it seriously. Besides, if a would be rapist has no qualms about ambushing their victims in a public restroom, I doubt they'd have any qualms about sneaking into the wrong bathroom.
Argument: Child molestation
Counterargument: Ignoring that the statistics say most molesters know the child, or that the above bit about rapists in general applies to this subset of rape people like to single out for some reason, the simple act of being a responsible parent and escorting your child to the restroom would probably do more to foil any would be molesters than any law ever could.
Now, if I've missed any common arguments for maintaining the status quo or any common arguments for allowing trans into the bathroom of their choice instead of outright desegregating restrooms, please let me know, and I'll voice my opinion on them.
As for why I favor desegregation, beyond the usual segregation is bad rhetoric:
More efficient use of resources: If there is a period of asymmetric demand(e.g. long line for the ladies' room and no line for the mens' room or vice versa), why should people waiting in the longer line be forced to wait when the opposite restroom of the segregated pair has unoccupied stalls? In a school setting, where students are often expected to go to the bathroom during designated breaks that are often barely long enough to allow commuting from one class to the next, allowing such oveflow to the less in-demand restroom could reduce the number of students forced to make a choice between holding it(meaning they can't concentrate in class) or being tardy to their next class(possibly disrupting the teacher's lesson) and even cut down on mid-class requests to use the restroom.
Desegregation would render the question of what to do with trans individuals moot.
Not to mention it could help diminish the notion that there are important differences between men and women unrelated to reproduction.
And speaking of segregation, some of the posts in this thread sound like separate but equal, which I'd like to remind readers was used to justified racial segregation of schools among many other things. Not saying it can never be a valid argument, but if you're going to use it, you should at least make an attempt to argue why it's valid here when it's been discredited in so many other contexts.
Also, I think some in this thread have unreasonable standards of what qualifies as civil discourse. Compared to what I've read about the cesspool of human culture we call social media, this thread has been downright exemplary of what online debate should be.
In my experience, unless you're being an attention *****, most people don't give a damn what other's do, and unless you're doing something genuinely morally reprehensible, most of the outcry for doing things outside socially accepted behavior comes from a voacal minority, not the majority, and even when a dichotomy is true, apathy is often the plurality.
I know anecdotes are weak evidence, but I live in a small town where local politics are dominated by black v. white in the racial sense, the majority of people are some flavor of protestant Christian, and the gossip mills and the drama they generate constitute the primary form of entertainment outside of the Internet. And yet, outside of my family, no one commented when I switched from wearing mens' t-shirts to wearing womens' tunics and very few have commented on my decision to stop wearing shoes(and when people do comment on my choice of footwear, its usually curiosity rather than criticism that motivates their comments). Now, I suspect barefooters are at least as rare as homosexuals or transsexuals, and unlike those groups, barefooters actually have an identifying feature any reasonably observant person can pick out, and I've heard of no argument to suggest barefooting might not be a conscious choice. Similarly, I suspect most people don't care about the bathroom habits of others as long as they aren't interfering in their own bathroom habits.
As to the common arguments in favor of the status quo regarding bathrooms:
Argument: They've always been segregated by sex.
Counter argument: While I confess appeal to tradition can be a powerful tool of persuasion, especially when trying to convince older generations, it's a fairly weak argument by itself, and works best in cases of affirming a tradition that makes sense to convince people to reject a nonsensical tradition. Plus, this argument ignores the fact that public bathrooms as we know them are a very modern invention, and that similar arguments were used to defend other things that were once status quo but are now reviled.
Argument: Privacy.
Counter argument: The vast majority of multiple-occupancy public restrooms already have stalls with locking doors, and thus offer plenty of privacy. I fail to comprehend how segregation of restrooms adds additional privacy that locking stalls don't. Now, if you are arguing in favor of requiring public restrooms that don't already have locking stalls to have such installed, requiring that stalls have smaller gaps between their walls and the floor/ceiling, mandating broken locks be replaced in a timely fashion, or requiring full stalls enclosing urinals, this argument might hold water. As for people with shy bladders, nothing short of single occupancy restrooms or a cure for their psychological block are likely to help them, and buildings with multiple-occupancy restrooms generally see too much human traffic for single-occupancy restrooms to be sufficient for demand(and from what I've heard, many public schools already suffer from too few stalls to handle peak demand).
Argument: Rapists.
Counterargument: Not trying to downplay the problem of rape, but not everything ties into that problem, and acting as if everything does makes it harder to identify issues genuinely related to the problem and makes it harder for people not directly affected by the problem to take it seriously. Besides, if a would be rapist has no qualms about ambushing their victims in a public restroom, I doubt they'd have any qualms about sneaking into the wrong bathroom.
Argument: Child molestation
Counterargument: Ignoring that the statistics say most molesters know the child, or that the above bit about rapists in general applies to this subset of rape people like to single out for some reason, the simple act of being a responsible parent and escorting your child to the restroom would probably do more to foil any would be molesters than any law ever could.
Now, if I've missed any common arguments for maintaining the status quo or any common arguments for allowing trans into the bathroom of their choice instead of outright desegregating restrooms, please let me know, and I'll voice my opinion on them.
As for why I favor desegregation, beyond the usual segregation is bad rhetoric:
More efficient use of resources: If there is a period of asymmetric demand(e.g. long line for the ladies' room and no line for the mens' room or vice versa), why should people waiting in the longer line be forced to wait when the opposite restroom of the segregated pair has unoccupied stalls? In a school setting, where students are often expected to go to the bathroom during designated breaks that are often barely long enough to allow commuting from one class to the next, allowing such oveflow to the less in-demand restroom could reduce the number of students forced to make a choice between holding it(meaning they can't concentrate in class) or being tardy to their next class(possibly disrupting the teacher's lesson) and even cut down on mid-class requests to use the restroom.
Desegregation would render the question of what to do with trans individuals moot.
Not to mention it could help diminish the notion that there are important differences between men and women unrelated to reproduction.
And speaking of segregation, some of the posts in this thread sound like separate but equal, which I'd like to remind readers was used to justified racial segregation of schools among many other things. Not saying it can never be a valid argument, but if you're going to use it, you should at least make an attempt to argue why it's valid here when it's been discredited in so many other contexts.
Also, I think some in this thread have unreasonable standards of what qualifies as civil discourse. Compared to what I've read about the cesspool of human culture we call social media, this thread has been downright exemplary of what online debate should be.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Jeff that might be a little excessive. Let's try to slim some stuff down.
(Pre-Post Edit: I put my actual arguments against the bill in this spoiler tag because while streamlined compared to Jeff, I think my best point is made at the end, which was left out of the spoiler tag.)Honestly, I think the only answer is to instead push for businesses to just make nonsegregated bathrooms. Amusingly enough, in the exact state of Tsui's concern, there is a place that has pushed for a gender-neutral restroom that has apparently been fairly successful: Alamo Drafthouse in Austin.
(Image links to a facebook post about the bathroom) I first heard of this in a vlog by Burnie Burns, who shows it in real life, despite not matching the original design.
This design may be at the forefront of improving bathroom conditions for all people, not just transgender people. I think we are looking at a potential future, because I'd also argue that the issue of safety can be nullified with cameras on each end of the hall, clearly recording if anyone enters a stall with more than one person. There is far less grey area on potential assault in bathrooms, and people who are normally uncomfortable using the bathroom in public can feel some increased sense of privacy.
People treat this issue too much like we must work with an existing system, when realistically we should make systems that suit the people who live in them. An anecdote from my father was how bizarre he felt in a European country where they had a similar design to the Drafthouse. (I can't remember the country or be bothered to ask him right now.) To him, an American, this was strange and he was worried about safety, but to the people of this country, that wasn't even a concern. How we discuss that bathroom situation says way more about America than it should.
(Pre-Post Edit: I put my actual arguments against the bill in this spoiler tag because while streamlined compared to Jeff, I think my best point is made at the end, which was left out of the spoiler tag.)
Spoiler:
(Image links to a facebook post about the bathroom) I first heard of this in a vlog by Burnie Burns, who shows it in real life, despite not matching the original design.
This design may be at the forefront of improving bathroom conditions for all people, not just transgender people. I think we are looking at a potential future, because I'd also argue that the issue of safety can be nullified with cameras on each end of the hall, clearly recording if anyone enters a stall with more than one person. There is far less grey area on potential assault in bathrooms, and people who are normally uncomfortable using the bathroom in public can feel some increased sense of privacy.
People treat this issue too much like we must work with an existing system, when realistically we should make systems that suit the people who live in them. An anecdote from my father was how bizarre he felt in a European country where they had a similar design to the Drafthouse. (I can't remember the country or be bothered to ask him right now.) To him, an American, this was strange and he was worried about safety, but to the people of this country, that wasn't even a concern. How we discuss that bathroom situation says way more about America than it should.
Avatar Art by chocohugs; Signature by Tsui
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
@Jeff
Now what's your response to my concern?
@Crazo
I can't help but feel we're ignoring the concerns and feelings of everyone else in favor of people who want things to change.
Trying to bring change like that will not bring change the way it should arrive, that kind of tunnel vision will bring problems.
Now what's your response to my concern?
@Crazo
I can't help but feel we're ignoring the concerns and feelings of everyone else in favor of people who want things to change.
Trying to bring change like that will not bring change the way it should arrive, that kind of tunnel vision will bring problems.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
i'm just going to throw my unpopular controversial opinion that will set the entire website on fire again in here
yes LGBTQ+ people are all people too. i don't support them use the bathroom that they identify with NOT because i don't like them, but because i feel this raises several problems concerning the no-no zone. without restrictions in place anyone with malicious intents can easily pretend they identify as the opposite gender and, well, let's just say that it wouldn't end well. the men/women restroom convention does feel like the right way to go about things because they are sorted by biological sex and not something that can easily be faked. of course i'm not opposed to the idea of installing extra unisex bathrooms on newer premises so that people can CHOOSE if they want to bunk with people who might be different biologically.
also it's texas; we're quite possibly the most right-wing province on the planet.
edit: i should probably read the thread BEFORE posting lol. i just reiterate a lot of points stated in this thread but w/e i already posted a thing
yes LGBTQ+ people are all people too. i don't support them use the bathroom that they identify with NOT because i don't like them, but because i feel this raises several problems concerning the no-no zone. without restrictions in place anyone with malicious intents can easily pretend they identify as the opposite gender and, well, let's just say that it wouldn't end well. the men/women restroom convention does feel like the right way to go about things because they are sorted by biological sex and not something that can easily be faked. of course i'm not opposed to the idea of installing extra unisex bathrooms on newer premises so that people can CHOOSE if they want to bunk with people who might be different biologically.
also it's texas; we're quite possibly the most right-wing province on the planet.
edit: i should probably read the thread BEFORE posting lol. i just reiterate a lot of points stated in this thread but w/e i already posted a thing
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
^again that doesn't stop sexual assaults from happening in the first place. Also 99% of the time they won't happen in the public bathroom due to the fact it is a public place and people don't want to get caught doing it. Even if they didn't care if they got caught they don't have to "pretend" to be a gender identity that they don't identify with. I'm not gonna get into the whole "opposite" gender debacle either.
I think crazo and Jeff did a really good job explaining what I'm trying to say. Even then the points you reiterated are countered in both their posts so yeah reading the thread first would've helped.
I think crazo and Jeff did a really good job explaining what I'm trying to say. Even then the points you reiterated are countered in both their posts so yeah reading the thread first would've helped.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
I feel like you're putting a lot of faith and trust into people to not make horrible actions Bunelody.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
an actual post from me that isn't peeposting
i don't get it, what is the actual issue of allowing not-cis people to use whatever bathroom they feel either completely or best fits their gender identity
seriously guys, enlighten me
i feel like i lie whenever i use the women's room, i'm not a woman, of course i don't look like anything but a woman in the eyes of others because of my non-passing ass but still
i don't get it, what is the actual issue of allowing not-cis people to use whatever bathroom they feel either completely or best fits their gender identity
seriously guys, enlighten me
i feel like i lie whenever i use the women's room, i'm not a woman, of course i don't look like anything but a woman in the eyes of others because of my non-passing ass but still
- Nano
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Honestly you're letting feelings control you more than facts. Crimes, most all the time, are committed by people that know the victim. So we should ban families from being together yeah?Triert wrote:I feel like you're putting a lot of faith and trust into people to not make horrible actions Bunelody.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Of course I'm putting trust in them the world may suck but not every person you meet is gonna hurt you. People do horrible things for whatever reason and unfortunately we can't stop them. Not letting people go to the bathroom of the gender they best identify with isn't gonna stop people from doing horrible things but it's not gonna allow people to do horrible things.
So sorry to hear your outlook on the world is so violent and awful
So sorry to hear your outlook on the world is so violent and awful