The trans public bathroom thing [no fite]
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
if trans people are allowed in their preferred bathrooms, trans people will be at a greater risk to assault of any kind over the cis people using those bathrooms. additionally, there isn't even that much of a threat that you're emphasizing about. the same crap will happen except this time trans people understand their risks when they go places. yes there is a safety issue... for trans people. it won't affect regular potential bathroom crimes as much as you think it will.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Please don't cherry pick two things I said in my post and ignore the rest, especially when what I said isn't contradicting in any way.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
I'm willing to rest on what Crazo said as far as camera's at this point.
Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
oh boy what a good night's rest better check my—
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
meanwhile I quietly continue to offer "stand-up" and "sit-down" labeled bathrooms
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
but i'm disabled and sit and my assistant stands, what do!!
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
The fact that Jeff and I both chose the term should make it even more obvious that it is just strong phrasing. Jeff is great at sentence structure and grammar. Paralleling the segregation of bathrooms to the Civil Right Movement is silly, since the aspect of bathrooms that is segregated is Men and Women, not Cis and Trans. Even though I think the Drafthouse model is ideal, that doesn't mean everyone is going to agree. Some who want transgender people to use the aesthetically appropriate bathroom likely would prefer to keep segregated bathrooms.Triert wrote:And no, it doesn't mean the same. If it did you nor Jeff would have referred to them as such.
Also, "aesthetically appropriate bathroom" is probably one of my best terms yet.
If we were playing a game of "majority rules because group think is best" then I wouldn't have posted at all. There was a clear majority well before I posted. What I'm trying to do is construct genuinely compelling arguments to help discuss the issue. I'm trying to do philosophy, because that's what I have fun doing. I was hoping we could have a nice time discussing perspectives, but you're not making that easy.Triert wrote:But congratulations, now suddenly I'm in the minority. Now I'm the one who gets to say "Just because you're a majority doesn't make your opinion or belief anymore valid than mine."
FINALLY WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE GOOD STUFF!Triert wrote:I was being honest about my hall question, but if your idea is to put camera's inside of bathrooms to ensure safety. Then that begins a breach of privacy, however, my concern is safety, and is one I'm willing to accept if other people are going to as well. I have heard that places removed camera's from female bathrooms because they felt like it breached their privacy, but this is a compromise I can agree with.
My suggestion was that with the Drafthouse model, cameras would be placed on both ends of the hall where the bathroom stalls are located. This would allow us to clearly see who is entering the bathroom stalls and if they are entering alone. The benefit to safety is that there is a sense of "someone is watching", and then to security is that if someone tries to assault someone in the bathroom, we can clearly see if anyone was sharing a stall.
To me, and I imagine most people, a breach of privacy would be cameras in the same actual rooms as the toilets. If there is no camera in the stalls, then people are free to feel comfortable undressing to whatever degree necessary to use the bathroom. But a camera outside the stall ensures that anyone doing anything fishy gets caught.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
For what it's worth, I used the term segregated because it was my intuitive understanding that was the generally agreed upon term for describing facilities with similar, but separate accomodations for different groups. Any deeper meaning to the word choice was unintentional. That said, I intend to continue using segregated as using a different term in this context sounds wrong to my ears.
Though, I'll admit I have trouble comprehending why sex segregated bathrooms make any more sense than race-segregated bathrooms, but if we're considering a major exception to a rule most of us were raised to accept without rationale or stronger enforcement of said rule, perhaps we should be re-evaluating the rule itself.
Though, I'll admit I have trouble comprehending why sex segregated bathrooms make any more sense than race-segregated bathrooms, but if we're considering a major exception to a rule most of us were raised to accept without rationale or stronger enforcement of said rule, perhaps we should be re-evaluating the rule itself.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]
Personally, I think gendered bathrooms are stupid in the first place, but that's an opinion for another time.
A lot of the basis for these bills is under the guise that trans people, specifically trans women, have attacked people in bathrooms -- something that has never happened. It's a poorly disguised effort to strip people of one of the most basic rights. Trans people are not predators, and that is the image they are trying to paint here.
The "use a separate bathroom" thing is all well and good, except when you're in high school and that bathroom is all the way on the other side of the building and, not to mention, always locked because people were doing inappropriate things in it (speaking from personal experience here), or if you're in a place that doesn't have a unisex bathroom in the first place, since they're not a requirement.
So, what am I supposed to do? Pee outside? Go find a building with a unisex bathroom just to relieve myself?
And even in the case of unisex public bathrooms becoming more standard, you still get into the problem of insisting that trans people are not the gender they say they are by denying them entry to gendered spaces. Do you think I like being gawked at, laughed at, and even threatened when all I want to do is pee? Because, for me, this is the result regardless of which bathroom I choose, so I may as well just use the men's room.
You can try to say "I want a non-emotional argument" all you like, but the fact is the people who started the argument are coming from an emotional place, not a logical one. They fear anything that goes beyond their narrow concept of normalcy, and attempt to stifle it in any way they can. So, if they can make up an excuse that trans people are dangerous in bathrooms, then they will, because they're running out of ways to keep us down.
My logical argument is this: trans women are women, and trans men are men, and therefore should be allowed to use the women's and men's restrooms, respectively. If you can present me with a counter that does not deny us of our identities, and does not imply we are predatory, I'm all ears.
EDIT: inb4 "but the children!!!!!!!" it is literally not hard to educate your kids on transgendered people. It's as simple as saying "some people are told that they're [gender] when they're born, but later realize that they're [other gender]." It's not as if people using a bathroom are staring at each other's junk anyways, so I HIGHLY doubt you'll have to give your kid a sex talk.
A lot of the basis for these bills is under the guise that trans people, specifically trans women, have attacked people in bathrooms -- something that has never happened. It's a poorly disguised effort to strip people of one of the most basic rights. Trans people are not predators, and that is the image they are trying to paint here.
The "use a separate bathroom" thing is all well and good, except when you're in high school and that bathroom is all the way on the other side of the building and, not to mention, always locked because people were doing inappropriate things in it (speaking from personal experience here), or if you're in a place that doesn't have a unisex bathroom in the first place, since they're not a requirement.
So, what am I supposed to do? Pee outside? Go find a building with a unisex bathroom just to relieve myself?
And even in the case of unisex public bathrooms becoming more standard, you still get into the problem of insisting that trans people are not the gender they say they are by denying them entry to gendered spaces. Do you think I like being gawked at, laughed at, and even threatened when all I want to do is pee? Because, for me, this is the result regardless of which bathroom I choose, so I may as well just use the men's room.
You can try to say "I want a non-emotional argument" all you like, but the fact is the people who started the argument are coming from an emotional place, not a logical one. They fear anything that goes beyond their narrow concept of normalcy, and attempt to stifle it in any way they can. So, if they can make up an excuse that trans people are dangerous in bathrooms, then they will, because they're running out of ways to keep us down.
My logical argument is this: trans women are women, and trans men are men, and therefore should be allowed to use the women's and men's restrooms, respectively. If you can present me with a counter that does not deny us of our identities, and does not imply we are predatory, I'm all ears.
EDIT: inb4 "but the children!!!!!!!" it is literally not hard to educate your kids on transgendered people. It's as simple as saying "some people are told that they're [gender] when they're born, but later realize that they're [other gender]." It's not as if people using a bathroom are staring at each other's junk anyways, so I HIGHLY doubt you'll have to give your kid a sex talk.
Re: The trans public bathroom thing [no fite]
Texas Senate passes revived 'bathroom bill'
Police, sheriffs join opposition to Texas bathroom bill
Still a thing.
No mention of students currently, just in general, for all public restrooms.
Police, sheriffs join opposition to Texas bathroom bill
Still a thing.
No mention of students currently, just in general, for all public restrooms.
So now it's yeah, about trans people using public restrooms. Have fun.Tsui wrote:I feel I need to specify that this topic isn't just about trans people using public restrooms, it's more specifically about trans kids and teens in public schools in a red state that harbors a lot of LGBT+ people.