The trans public bathroom thing [no fite]

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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

We've stated it twice and each time there is a lack of response to it
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Bunelody »

Show me where you've stated these
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

Triert wrote: My issue isn't in letting them in, it's trying to think of how we can make it hard to avoid letting people take advantage of it and avoid using "transphobia" as a defense when someone is doing something unacceptable.
Even eblu said something similar.

@Nano
No one else wants to accept that there are risks that people here are expecting everyone to accept so they feel comfortable, that's on them to allow something that while they might not accept or allow to happen, are enabling to happen. For no reason other than they feel it is right, I think there is a problem to be had with all of this, as for the latter, what crime specifically are you referring to. Crime is a big name for an umbrella of illegal actions committed.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Bunelody »

You're making this an extremely black and white issue.

There's so many "what ifs" to this situation and your only solution is to force trans folks to go into the bathrooms they aren't comfortable being in.

I don't have much energy to continue for tonight but again maybe read crazo and jeffs responses instead of the last lines?
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

So you mean to say that you nor anyone else has any sort of plan on how to stop people from taking advantage of others if this was allowed?
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Bunelody »

The only plan is what they've been teaching people all along. Self defense. If someone is so hellbent on hurting someone they're gonna do it and we can only defend ourselves. It sucks, it's not fair, but that's how it happens. Even then 8 out of 10 sexual assaults are by someone the victim already knows. I doubt the person is just gonna disguise themselves to walk into a bathroom to rape them. Give me proof of people abusing the idea of trans people being allowed to use the bathrooms of their choice. Wverything you've said has been hypothetical.
And real talk trans people are more likely to be assaulted in the bathrooms of their designated birth gender than a cis person so why aren't you thinking of them as well?
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

"Give me proof"
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local ... 32041.html

http://theavtimes.com/2013/05/14/palmda ... -bathroom/

http://linkis.com/www.lifesitenews.com/12D80

Three examples right now
"And real talk trans people are more likely to be assaulted in the bathrooms of their designated birth gender than a cis person so why aren't you thinking of them as well?"

"The only plan is what they've been teaching people all along. Self defense. If someone is so hellbent on hurting someone they're gonna do it and we can only defend ourselves. It sucks, it's not fair, but that's how it happens."
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Bunelody »

I can't continue this discussion at this moment due to the state of mind I'm in
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Lamby »

man just have a backbone and say you're uncomfortable with trans people and you don't particularly care if the law looks after us or not. there's really no need for psuedointellectual posturing. i don't think you really are concerned with people being attacked; you've already suggested that trans identities need to be overwritten despite modern science and evidence of the contrary. you're lucky anyone is remotely entertaining your paranoid and socially inept complex about transgender rights

your histrionic political obsessions are just straight up bizarre and i don't understand why you made a thread just to again reiterate what the community already knows; you don't have any debate skills whatsoever and you aren't interested in discussing anything unless it serves your narrative. like honestly, what r u even doing? i don't know whether to actually pretend like your beliefs matter and are worthy of attention or if you have some contrarian meta point i'm missing

edit: like i know this comes across as rude but i really don't understand what your angle is
Last edited by Lamby on Sat May 27, 2017 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

Can you rephrase that in a way that doesn't look like you're trying to start an internet spat? Such as for instance, staying on topic?
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Lamby »

that pretty much answers my question. o well :/
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Crazo3077 »

I know a lot has been discussed, but I think eblu's response gives the most to work with, and helps me work out another concept I wanted to mention, but felt was too controversial. Apparently we are riding the controversy train today.
eblu wrote: i don't support them use the bathroom that they identify with NOT because i don't like them, but because i feel this raises several problems concerning the no-no zone. without restrictions in place anyone with malicious intents can easily pretend they identify as the opposite gender and, well, let's just say that it wouldn't end well.
So that controversial thing is same sex assault. The segregated bathrooms don't stop the existing population of men and women from acting irrationally in the bathroom. Why isn't there more same sex assault? Because most people don't go into a public bathroom looking to assault people, sexually or otherwise. There's also the fact that the majority of sexual assaults are conducted by a close friend or stalker, and not some stranger out in the public. Letting transgender people, or fake transgender people, use either bathroom is no more dangerous than the existing system.
eblu wrote:the men/women restroom convention does feel like the right way to go about things because they are sorted by biological sex and not something that can easily be faked.
I partially addressed this in my own post, but I'll go about it a different way.

At work I wear my curly long hair in a ponytail and wear an apron. A few customers a week see me for a woman solely based on appearance, and then clear it up based on my voice or my name tag. That's also with me not really trying to practice feminine body language or applying any sense of makeup, so I must not be a very attractive woman. To those customers who see me as a woman, they would expect me to walk into the women's restroom, but instead I walk into the men's restroom to use a urinal. With actual effort, no one would know what equipment I have as long as I went into a stall.

Similarly, at conventions, I will crossdress when cosplaying sometimes, and get the classic "wrong bathroom" from guys. But they don't say this and then escort me out. They just say it and continue whatever they were doing. People in bathrooms rarely care enough to make eye contact let alone look at other people in the bathroom. Their goal is to use the bathroom and get out. If you're doing more than that, you're the weird one.
eblu wrote:of course i'm not opposed to the idea of installing extra unisex bathrooms on newer premises so that people can CHOOSE if they want to bunk with people who might be different biologically.
This is just giving eblu props for actually embracing the potential of unisex bathrooms.

In a previous response, Triert said this to my post:
Triert wrote:I can't help but feel we're ignoring the concerns and feelings of everyone else in favor of people who want things to change.

Trying to bring change like that will not bring change the way it should arrive, that kind of tunnel vision will bring problems.
That problem with this statement is that change was inherently brought to the table. Ignoring the segregation of bathrooms being a change at one point, making a choice on which bathrooms transgender people must use IS a change.

We went from a state of no explicit answer to having groups make a decision. This changes the rules of the bathrooms to include a rule for transgender people. Arguably, transgender people were probably just walking into the bathroom they'd get less flak for walking into for ages, and no one ever noticed. They only noticed when it would come up as a hot topic.

Odds are, if you see someone in the bathroom and think they might be transgender, you more likely are just seeing a cisgender person who isn't very attractive looking.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Nano »

Triert wrote:@Nano
No one else wants to accept that there are risks that people here are expecting everyone to accept so they feel comfortable, that's on them to allow something that while they might not accept or allow to happen, are enabling to happen. For no reason other than they feel it is right, I think there is a problem to be had with all of this, as for the latter, what crime specifically are you referring to. Crime is a big name for an umbrella of illegal actions committed.
Trans people being allowed in bathrooms isn't going to increase sexual assault. People who are already going to commit sexual assault will continue doing so. You've already said this multiple times, that the people we need to worry about aren't the trans people but the sexual predators. You make it sound like someone is gonna go into a restroom full of women and be like "i'm trans" and then sexually assault someone in front of everyone. I have no idea what kind of narrative you have playing in your head about this, but that's not what would happen. Sexual assault in general happens in secluded areas or in bathrooms that lack people. It doesn't matter if the person fakes being trans to get in there, cause their one goal is to isolate someone and assault them where nobody else will be around. They don't need to fake being trans to do that. This also isn't nearly as common as we're led to believe. I touched on it, and Crazo did too, but a lot of crime is committed by close friends, family, stalkers, etc. People who the victim likely knows.

Those articles you linked also show that when people are aware, these creeps will be caught. It's no different than the people who peep on girls in a locker room. If someone does something that very clearly screams "PERVERT" then they'll deal with it. It's basically the same idea with how people justify keeping guns. Perverts like those people will find a way to spy on women, with or without trans people being allowed into bathrooms. You can argue that trans people being allowed in the bathroom makes it easier, but it also makes it much more likely they'll get caught considering they'll be more out in the open since they're essentially surrounded by women. The last dude in particular isn't even a bathroom incident, so I don't know why you decided to bring it up aside from "Trans people shouldn't be allowed in shelters" which is completely off topic. The bill is called the "bathroom bill" but is very clearly not at all related to just bathrooms, which is what this topic is about.

I don't think everyone has the best bills in place, I don't think every state is going to get it right. States are places that experiment with the law and try to get a better understanding of what works and what doesn't. Instead of taking one bad bill, pointing your finger and saying "This is why we shouldn't do that", it's better to ask "what was wrong in the bill, what can be improved, and how will these changes help or hurt people".

Will allowing transgender people into bathrooms cause an increase in sexual assault? Maybe initially, but long term I don't think we'll see anything much different from what we already have.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Tsui »

I'm the type of person who doesn't believe in punishing the whole class for a specific few students chatting.

So even if this hypothetical trans person (or, claiming-to-be-trans person...?) were to harm anyone, why should that affect all trans people and kids?
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by chaoadventures »

...

why don't we just name the bathrooms after the way we pee and be done with it
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

I don't realistically expect to change anyone's mind, but I agree with most of what Crazo and Nano said and I think they did a better job of expressing some of my points in a more elegant and less wordy manner.

To respond directly to Triert's concern, even at the risk of repeating the choir, I don't doubt there would be people who would take advantage of a legal mandate to let trans people into the bathroom of their choice for malicious deeds, but I suspect those who would take advantage are a small group to begin with and that most already have no qualms about sneaking into the wrong bathroom. I don't know the statistics, but if anything, I'd expect cases of couples looking for cheap thrills sneaking into bathrooms for semi-public acts of consensual sex to outnumber cases of rape in public bathroom, and even those I'd expect to be far rarer than the media industry(especially the 18+ sector) would have us believe.

Speaking more generally, people with malicious intent tend to take advantage of laws that let them be malicious while remaining legal, and it isn't always easy to predict how any new law will be abused. At the same time, few people with intention to commit a felony are going to be stopped because they have to commit a misdemeanor in the process or violate some social nicety that isn't legally enforced, and would be criminals that do have such a neurosis pose little threat. I mean, when was the last time you heard of a bank robber getting caught because he wasn't willing to break the speed limit or jaywalk to make his getaway? How often does a mugging victim describe their mugger as being otherwise a perfect gentleman?

Though, I must confess that segregation of bathrooms strikes me as one of those social constructs that few people ever question because it's been nearly universal to their experience, but make little or no sense once you start questioning the practice. I can only guess that it's a byproduct of a time when it was deemed inappropriate for men and women to meet in private for any reason unless they were either blood relatives or married, and that it persists through a combination of social inertia, few bothering to question the practice, and people with a knee jerk aversion to change coming up with any half-baked reason they can think of in response to those who do question it.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

@Crazo

I sincerely doubt all trans people look the way you think they do, that point you made had little to do with the conversation and is only being brought up right now so I can shoot it down in the same breath.

Your point on sexual assault is true, and if you could, could you address what I had posted.

I'd be fine embracing the idea of a unisex bathroom if trans people here didn't already dislike the idea of it. There's no reason to accept it if people feel ostracized over it.

I'd have to agree with you on your final statement, there were much less trans people say, 10 years ago than there were 5 or 4 years ago. Now that it wound up becoming a hot topic and an LGBT cause, the problems become much worse and has only pushed people further away from wanting to see eye to eye with trans people on this subject.

@Nano

"Trans people being allowed in bathrooms isn't going to increase sexual assault."

"Will allowing transgender people into bathrooms cause an increase in sexual assault? Maybe initially, but long term I don't think we'll see anything much different from what we already have."

Pick one, and I'll admit that last source wasn't 100%.

But seeing as how you did wind up seeing eye to eye with me.

@Tsui
Not hypothetical, fake trans as the sources I've used shown people were ready to be to take advantage of the situation. My own opinion on trans people aside, they're only the half the cause of the problem, not the source of any of it.

@Mewtamer
If less of us are willing to doubt the issues at hand here, I say go right ahead with supporting all of this. I sincerely doubt it'll ever be anything anyone gets to choose, and every single time we have an incident prop up because of it. I know most of you will blame yourselves.
Last edited by Triert on Sat May 27, 2017 4:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Crazo3077 »

Triert wrote:I sincerely doubt all trans people look the way you think they do, that point you made had little to do with the conversation and is only being brought up right now so I can shoot it down in the same breath.

Your point on sexual assault, while true, didn't do much to address what was posted.
Then please enlighten me on what the conversation is because everyone else that's given me feedback has said that I'm responding appropriately.
Triert wrote:I'd be fine embracing the idea of a unisex bathroom if trans people here didn't already dislike the idea of it. There's no reason to accept it if people feel ostracized over it.
No, my dude, you're not okay with a unisex bathroom. You're okay with a unisex option in segregated bathrooms. The Drafthouse example is a unisex bathroom, but you said that people don't want bathrooms that don't have the pants-person and the dress-person. A unisex option isn't a unisex bathroom.
Triert wrote:I'd have to agree with you on your final statement, there were much less trans people say, 10 years ago than there were 5 or 4 years ago. Now that it wound up becoming a hot topic and an LGBT cause, you've all managed to make things worse for yourselves and deluded each other and everyone around you into thinking this is the new "gay marriage" of your generation.
Way to not mind the [no fite], my guy. You say "you've all" as if it was a specific demographic that made it an issue. People both for and against the bathrooms brought it up and made it an issue.

Like most problems, especially over something as small as this, don't just pop up because someone was like "If you don't agree with me, you're just a dummy." It gradually happens as people begin to express opinions and lines begin to be drawn. The bathroom situation being a problem is equally the fault of anyone with an open opinion on transgender people using the bathroom, including yourself.

Don't put this on other people like you're not part of the problem. I accept I'm part of the mess. That's why I want to help clean it up.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

If I may, could I restate myself and have you edit your post in response? I understand the problems in my post and would like to correct them.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Crazo3077 »

So I looked back and tried to reapproach the topic by what Triert focused on, and honestly you're creating your own problem, dude.
Triert wrote:My issue isn't in letting them in, it's trying to think of how we can make it hard to avoid letting people take advantage of it and avoid using "transphobia" as a defense when someone is doing something unacceptable.
Triert wrote:We've stated it twice and each time there is a lack of response to it
Crazo3077 wrote:This design may be at the forefront of improving bathroom conditions for all people, not just transgender people. I think we are looking at a potential future, because I'd also argue that the issue of safety can be nullified with cameras on each end of the hall, clearly recording if anyone enters a stall with more than one person. There is far less grey area on potential assault in bathrooms, and people who are normally uncomfortable using the bathroom in public can feel some increased sense of privacy.
You're regularly concerned with safety over assault. We provided you with the position that assault is usually from familiar people, not strangers. And I offered you a solution to the risk of unreported assaults. Because unless you want physical guards, this is best we can do is make reporting assault more efficient. What's more demeaning than being a mall cop? Bathroom cop.

You do understand that it is solely a notion of human decency that stops people from assaulting anyone and everyone at any given time, right? Like the reason I can go to work and not expect customers to beat the snot out of me is because of a vague sense of respect and fear humans hold toward each other. The reason they don't just walk out with whatever they want, toting guns and ammo, is because they understand the complex system of human decency.

If by "could you address what I had posted" you also want me to address the links you provided, that's just pretentious. Yes, there are going to be fools who think a law meant to protect a group of people can be used to protect them when they want to do something wrong. That's the same from the fat cats on Wall Street to the guy at you school who likes to shout controversial opinions, and when people give him flak for it, he says "It's just freedom of speech, man." Never mind that it could be hate speech or blasphemy or slander, the guy still thinks it is okay because of freedom of speech. That's the same type of dummy who will pretend to be transgender to peep on or assault women.

So what we have to conclude, and what seems to be the feeling of the people who are reading this, is that you are assenting to a choice. You're valuing safety from idiots over the comfort of both transgender people and cisgender people, rather than just punishing stupid people when they do something stupid. Right, that makes sense. Because having a Caitlyn Jenner walk into the men's bathroom, or a Chaz Bono walk into the women's bathroom is going to create so many less problems and tensions.

I'm glad you thought this out and came to a truly utilitarian decision.

EDIT:
I'm looking back further and playing the link game too.
Triert wrote:The majority doesn't think it's acceptable for one thing.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... hould-use/

I'd link to others but Pew is like #1 on polling.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

I'm just going to ask one more time if you could remove what I also edited out of my post in the post you made before this one.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Crazo3077 »

The thread's existing narrative already makes it clear that you edited the post, but your edit barely even changes the context. I'm not editing it, and refusing to do anything until it is edited is silly.

Either continue the discussion or not. It is your move.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

I understand your decision, I was hoping you could have given me a chance to prevent things from getting worse from something even I admit was a mistake to post. Something that I thought I deleted before posting no less.

Using the word segregated here is trying to equate this with the civil rights movement, and it's very obvious. You're entirely correct on what I mean by unisex.

"Way to mind the no fite"

I'm only human and asked you twice to remove that before this could have gotten worse when more people showed up to post. But congratulations, you can call yourself a part of the problem too now and you're also adding fire to the mess.

I've talked to many people, in the demographic you and others associate yourselves with for years now, I've seen the arguments start, I've seen the people it came from, I know who you people are.

You're rather delusional on equating two stereotypes you obviously have a chip on your shoulder over and saying it's part of the problem. Specifically the "freedom of speech people are the same people who will take advantage of what you hate." You are far from anyone who should be making any sort of discussion here if your projection is going to be attempting to influence others.

Yes, I am valueing safety over the comfort of trans people and the people who support their bathroom decision because they have, much like people here, refused to admit they are inviting a problem or admit we might have some trouble but we should learn to accept it because it'll make a small minority feel comfortable.

But hey, you're not a minority, you're a majority. So maybe the minority voices here should matter, but I already see how you'll equate the voices of people you disagree with very obviously.

Also, by hall do you mean school hall or is there some kind of bathroom hall I don't know about?

And yes, the narrative barely changes the context but I would have preferred something that gives people less of a carpe diem to get upset at me over.
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Crazo3077 »

Things aren't going to get worse. This isn't some emotional battle. I'd say "you need to calm down" but it is far more likely you need to slow down. Like your lines are so disjointed it isn't even funny.

I'm not using segregated to make any parallels. Would you rather I say divided or split? It means the same either way.

The joke about [no fite] was before your demanded I edit my post. You editing your post is more controversial than the original phrasing. Like you could have saved both of us time by not even editing, and we'd be at the same place in the discussion.

You're using demographic in a weird way, and we need to be on the same page. A demographic is a broad category of people defined by an objective detail and used to measure another detail. Men and women are demographics. Ages create demographics. Regions create demographics. Opinions on the bathroom bill are not a means for determining a demographic: we ask demographics what they think of the bill. You cannot associate or identify with a demographic: you are IDENTIFIABLE as a member of a demographic.

You're suggesting that I'm stereotyping people based solely on their opinion of the bathroom bill. That is a poor reading of my posts. While they are two divided opinions, those opinions are held diversely by multiple different demographics. Did you even look at my Pew link?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... hould-use/

Look there. They use gender, race/ethnicity, and ages as demographics. They even used religion as a demographic. These aren't all the same type of people, and likely have very different lives. I'm not trying to stereotype anyone here. You're the one stereotyping with talks of "I know who you people are." How can you know? We're each different individuals with different causes.

My freedom of speech example may not have been the best, but I tried to be fair with it. That's why I included blasphemy, hate speech, and slander. Almost anyone can say they've had an issue with someone speaking one of those. I'd love to meet the person who thinks anything everyone has ever said was okay.

So you feel that less problems will come from people who look like Caitlyn Jenner and Laverne Cox using the men's restroom, and people who look like Chaz Bono using the women's restroom, rather than just do what we already do when a creep wanders into a women's restroom with bad intentions. You don't think that any cisgender people will be uncomfortable with that? You don't think any transgender people will be less safe because of that? Do you even think?

I'm not even humoring your hall question. Read the Drafthouse post or just stop. You're tiring me with how little attention you're actually paying.

I really don't want to be mean but you make it too easy. I actually have to spend effort to not come off mean in these responses because it feels like you're not even trying. Do you actually care about this issue or do you just want to fight for the sake of fighting?
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Re: The trans school bathroom thing again [no fite]

Post by Triert »

You're putting too much faith into our hellsite to think what I said wasn't going to bring drama.

And no, it doesn't mean the same. If it did you nor Jeff would have referred to them as such.

But now, I'm making a demand? No, I was really hoping we could avoid letting this escalate if you would just give me the chance to not make things worse than what already happens each time I open my mouth on my own beliefs here, and for that matter each time anyone opens their mouth here like eboy did once.

As for what you said on demographic, I'll admit I had no idea what I was talking about.

Yes, I did look at your pew link, and I did my own research to see just how non-partisan they were, and found out they really are as non-partisan as you claim. But congratulations, now suddenly I'm in the minority. Now I'm the one who gets to say "Just because you're a majority doesn't make your opinion or belief anymore valid than mine."

You could have done without the blasphemy portion, at the very least.

I was being honest about my hall question, but if your idea is to put camera's inside of bathrooms to ensure safety. Then that begins a breach of privacy, however, my concern is safety, and is one I'm willing to accept if other people are going to as well. I have heard that places removed camera's from female bathrooms because they felt like it breached their privacy, but this is a compromise I can agree with.

"You really make it too easy" Well let me be honest here, I'm not a perfect person nor do I make the best decisions, I don't agree with many people here, have my own opinions on them, will do my best, whatever you hate about that much, fine, you were willing to have this talk with me instead of just outright calling me transphobic, or anything else that has genuinely put me on the edge here that I've been ignoring since I don't feel is something I can do anything about. I care about the issue and feel like we've reached a compromise and gotten somewhere, but I don't like the decisions you've made and your attempt to portray what I asked for my own sake over to be demanding instead of "I just really hate drama."
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