Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

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Triert
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Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:06 pm

Back in the day you didn't have nerfs and buffs causing an explosive and toxic community, one game after another.

And really, can someone here tell me what game is anywhere close to being as balanced as chess?

Moving on, Esports is pushing forward the idea that the constant nerfs and buffs to a game is a good thing. I'd much prefer a power vacuum situation where instead of characters getting nerfed to a horrendous point of play that is only done to satisfy the community. (See Roadhog from overwatch) We have characters who are instead made stronger as time goes on.

But that's far from what this is about, the whole idea of esports is a selfish, and stupid idea.

You want gaming to be popular just so you don't have to feel embarrassed about it when you talk about it with your friends and family. I've seen this brought up plenty of times and it always boils down to this.

None of us, have to prove ourselves to the general public. Do you forget what happens each time a game casualizes itself like that and castrates itself? You get a watered down product that only seeks to alienate longtime fans .

Take that and apply it to the whole of gaming, oh wait, too ******* late for that considering the kind of tripe that people still buy these days on consoles.

So in short, esports, triple a gaming, and the toxic culture of nerfs and buffs in communities has already ruined gaming and I pray a crash comes soon so companies have to put effort in appealing to people now.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby EvilPinkamina » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:08 pm

There are more games than just eSports, silly tree.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:10 pm

Most of them came from the bowels of steam greenlight

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby EvilPinkamina » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:15 pm

Not rly. There are actually really good games out that aren't esports. Night in the Woods, OneShot, Endless Space 2, Disgaea, Bayonetta, XCOM, anything Neptunia, etc. etc. etc. And those are just games that I found in my steam library.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Rajikaru » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:16 pm

Splatoon is pretty good, I hear.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:32 pm

I'm sure these games will change the direction and make people ask for more and start boycotts against companies when they do something awful.

Or they'll just continue the trend of fanboyism.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Tsui » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:42 pm

StarCraft was a failure that only sold nine million copies.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:48 pm

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Far from the point of any of this

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Tsui » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:05 pm

'kay here's a more serious answer:

Nerfs and buffs aren't a new concept, patches have been around for a while. It's all part of trying to make a balanced game that lacks garbage and god tiers, because no one wants to be the one facing the broken character. Game devs aren't perfect, also.

While video games are entertainment first and foremost, they can also be played competitively in the same way board games, such as the chess you mentioned, can be played competitively. Balance patches are there to make both the white and black sides feel fair.

Of course there will be a bit of a disappointment to anyone whose favorite character got changed or nerfed. But all you have to do is rethink your strategies, maybe start from the ground up again on your playstyle. It's just part of playing competitive online games. And if you don't enjoy a game, don't play it.

Yeah it's kind of irritating when people throw temper tantrums over balance changes. But just don't be one of those people. Video games are fun, man. Have fun.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:37 pm

"And if you don't enjoy a game, don't play it."

I want my money back but you and I both know how stingy blizzard is on refunds.

Funny thing, around the roadhogs hook got changed the first time there were D.va mains who were screaming for Zarya nerfs.

And now Zarya is still as strong as ever and D.Va got sent to the shadow realm.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby EvilPinkamina » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:42 pm

O wait this is a qq thread about overwatch.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:51 pm

**** you pink, i do not like you because you are black

Now Tsui, which one has ever achieved the right balance? Isn't that pretty important question? Being stuck in an everchanging metagame like that is something I already experienced in World of Warcraft, and something I realized has eventually been accepted as the norm.

They have never fixed god tier characters or garbage ones, all they ever do is make new garbage and gods.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Tsui » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:12 pm

I mean, I still enjoy WoW and Overwatch, but I play For Fun and not For Glory, so my being content doesn't mean much to people who play seriously.

In patch notes, for major changes they do leave dev comments on why they made these changes.

As for a balanced game, in my opinion I think SoulCalibur II is pretty balanced, but like I said, I don't play games super seriously.

Also you realize that holding a modern video game to the standards of chess which has been around for a very long time is kind of silly, right?
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:22 pm

"A modern video game"

That would imply I don't think about this with all games, sure, I'm not happy with overwatch today, but tomorrow it'll be something new, then the day after that, the unstable equilibrium continues.

But really, explain how it's silly.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Tsui » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:44 pm

Dude, if you're looking for someone to fight with over this, it's not gonna be me 'cause I'm one of those casuals who's more interested in customizing my characters than tiers.

Final thoughts, I think video games are fun, players in general need to lighten up a bit, don't play a game if it makes you angry, I personally couldn't care less about video game tournaments but some people really enjoy them.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Chaos the Light Chao » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:00 am

The chess comparison is pointless. It's mostly balanced in that both players have the exact same pieces. It would not be balanced if you played the pieces because everyone would get stomped on by whoever was playing the queen.

The power vacuum you hate so much is done because it is far more simple to design one nerf to the problem character than it is to design buffs to literally every other character. The strong character is weaker by comparison, regardless.

Leaving a game with no changes is fine because it gives more time to develop the meta for the game, but it can also cause staleness. In video games, Melee is the de facto example. Nothing surprising happens in it because it is a solved game. Put buffs and nerfs into the mix, however, and you essentially add fog of war. People have ideas on what is strong, but chances are, some character is getting slept on.

I'm not sure why you mention casualization, because the spread of esports is the spread of "make everything for the core audience, even the things that have no business being so." It's the opposite of what you're describing.

As for whether or not esports themselves are a good thing, eh, it is what it is.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Nano » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:03 am

I guess that's one way to start off a topic.

As for the actual content, I'm not sure what you're on about to be honest. Roadhog is a broken character, Esports whining has nothing to do with it. He can hook you in, change directions, and drop you in a hole. He can instantly kill most any 200-250 hp heroes. His ult can push players off ledges, and when Ana boosted can do massive amounts of damage. He can heal half his health every 8 seconds which is insanely useful even if he doesn't have a Mercy buttplug on him and it also charges his ult. I've gotten gold healing done as roadhog at times. That should never happen on a team with a healer.

All of this aside, your main hangup is that he was nerfed due to Esports, or the competitive community. What exactly is so bad about that? Overwatch wants to have a thriving competitive community. If a character is unbalanced in competitive play,
9/10 they're also going to be unbalanced in normal play. Even if they aren't, it's far more important to keep the game balanced at a competitive level than it is to please the casuals of the game since playing at a competitive level actually matters to some people. They're not JUST nerfing him, the dude is getting his headshot hitbox reduced as well to compensate which means less reaper bullets can hit his head and it'll be harder to do big damage to him. Bliz does this a lot with their nerfs, most of the time they'll introduce a buff to compensate for the changes they made.

Bliz wants to shake up metas and keep things interesting. They want to encourage you not to, say, stick only to Roadhog to the point where he's the only thing you play. I played Soldier 76 back when the dude was absolute garbage. I became VERY good with him even though he was heavily considered to be worthless DPS. Then he got buffed and now I'm a good 76 player with an even better toolkit. Nerfs suck, but if you really like him you'll just adjust and improve yourself to the nerfs. It's what separates the people who play a character for their gameplay style and those who play just cause they're "ez mode"
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby EvilPinkamina » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:04 am

Melee is an awful example. The "answer" to Melee is Fox but the players winning tournaments tend to be Peach/Puff players.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby chaoadventures » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:07 am

Triert wrote:You want gaming to be popular just so you don't have to feel embarrassed about it when you talk about it with your friends and family.

I want esports to be popular because I hate normal sports. Actually, I don't really want either to be popular because I don't usually like watching esports.

Honestly, I'm not concerned with being "normal" when talking to family members, because I barely relate as is outside my core family (I don't watch live action films or tv, watch sports, read books,
keep up to date with pop culture or other related crap).

I just want some game I can play that doesn't have dead servers, and occasional local tournaments I can visit on my own time, since I'm not much a "community" guy either, unless I explicitly choose to
(example: this very website).

Triert wrote:And really, can someone here tell me what game is anywhere close to being as balanced as chess?

Remove the luck from Pokemon Gold and Silver, and I'd say you've got a grade A game right there. I'd personally say it's pretty close as is, but that's just me.

Regardless of where this topic goes, I feel it is necessary to mention game patches and updates that add very few things to the table, example being Pokemon Crystal and Stadium 2.
Very small changes (move tutors and Earthquake Gligar) and bug fixes.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:30 am

@Tsui

"Don't play a game if it makes you angry."

You know, my fourty dollars were spent well learning where grief from a 5 dps comp will lead. I seriously don't know what kind of response you expect out of someone when you say what you say but I suppose that's you and I'm me.

@Chaos
No, I said I like a power vacuum.

You know what made things interesting before? Player made content, we still have that, and hell, the creation of MOBA's is thanks to a custom mod on one of blizzards own games. That's how people avoided staleness, all buffs and nerfs do is as said before, gods and garbage. A buff to one character can be a hard nerf to another from the existence of the buff. Sure, you can find joy in such a thing if you can. But the culture of people calling for nerfs to other players they hate is a neverending one.

What does your last sentence mean, I don't think it was explained well.

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Better this than politics.

Now onto the pig, you say easy mode but we have a lot of characters that don't require aim that remain untouched. My honest opinion is that the team has no idea on what to do with the hog anymore, they listened to everyone's complaints during the first lunar event and he came out at his peak. Then they turn him into a fatter slower reaper, now he's, 3.0.

If they don't want him one shotting players and want him as a disruptor, his killing potential should be low while his disruption potential remain high. Otherwise he's an ult battery for an enemy team. If you got gold healing as roadhog, that reflects more on you than it does your team that probably had someone turn into a healer midway through the game itself.

Roadhog is far from the worst treated hero, that was Lucio until the most recent patch put him in a place that fits in as comfortably as Reinhardt. Before that Lucio faced constant tweaks and changes but they ignored the reason his pickrate was high at all. AoE healing, so it's only fair to make his healing stronger but his area weaker...which while yes it is a nerf in theory, in application it's finally put him in a position that keeps him safe from blizzard feeling the need to try and make people pick him less after they realized they would never accomplish that unless they removed his passive healing aura.

I don't only play roadhog either, one trick players go against the function to switch your hero that we have for a reason. Hog is due for a touch up the way Symmetra and Bastion got one, his killing power was there because without it you'd find that he's very weak without it.

@Pink
Fox is by and far the best character but his skill cap is so high that tournament wins come from what you said because of their cap being lower.

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Esports has changed the market of games to cater to spectacles and crowds instead of gameplay. We still have exceptions but as the years keep coming it's getting closer to counting those exceptions with your fingers alone.

And who are you kidding, normal sports are fun to watch. I'll give a pass to Overwatch and Fighting Games because at least there you can have golden moments.

"I just want some game I can play that doesn't have dead servers"

I've talked once about something like this, the Splatoon 1 servers won't be around forever. After that we can only hope emulators can run servers independently, otherwise we have a Darkspore situation repeating. Given the games marketed these days, a massive graveyard of games that meet the fate of darkspore is waiting to happen. People stubbornly camped the Halo 2 servers for days on end, and we'll see the same happen over and over again.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Rajikaru » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:40 am

You were doing so good with not starting meaningless arguments too.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:44 am

Genuine disagreement is healthy to an extent, and I feel this is within an acceptable range that prevents us from seeing people who usually stay on the chatbox discord show up and talk. I mean I don't think they're bad people but if they showed up it means something got too political.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby EvilPinkamina » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:56 am

Triert wrote:@Pink
Fox is by and far the best character but his skill cap is so high that tournament wins come from what you said because of their cap being lower.


I mean that's really not the case tho. Top level foxes like Leffen/Mang0/SFAT aren't losing because the tech is too hard. They're losing because while fox has extreme strengths in his neutral and advantaged states, he also has extreme weaknesses in being ultimate combo food with mediocre recovery. His incredible fall speed makes him susceptible to reaction tech chases, chaingrabs, and rest combos that all see Fox losing his stocks at surprisingly early percents. Even though Fox is the best character, he still has exploitable flaws that a good player can take advantage of.

If a low skill cap was all it took to win Melee, we'd be seeing a lot more ICs players in top 10.
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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby Triert » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:13 am

Well to be fair we don't really see too many new people in the top ten either.

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Re: Esports is cancer and so is this stuff too

Postby EvilPinkamina » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:16 am

Holup what you mean by that? You mean new people like "melee has the same top 8 every time" or new people like peeps who've legit popped up out of nowhere?
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