First of all, hello everyone. I am happy to be a part of this forum and thankful for the resources it's provided me to reach my goal.
I'm a sonic adventure 2 speedrunner (currently ranked #1 in the gamecube version on cyberscore, eventually will update stats on TheSonicCenter but not yet) and I have been planning on practicing and completing a 180 emblem speedrun.
However, I am not the first person to do this. Another person by the name of Talon2461 has already done this with impressive results, getting all 180 emblems (including chao emblems, raising the chao from scratch in the speedrun) in 9 hours and 34 minutes.
I don't intend on competing with him for the same category (admittedly, I'm not as good or as consistent as he is at the levels at the moment.. he's among the very best of the best.. but I'm getting there) so I plan on doing a 180 emblem run using a pre-raised chao.
In order to do this in the fastest time possible, I plan on raising a chaos chao with perfect stats. I have planned this for a little while now and tonight I have just begun my journey - not too familiar with the chao aspect of the game, I did a little research.
To start off, I first bought eggs until I found one with an A in swim. I raised the swim stat up to level 27 using seals. I'm feeding the chao now in hopes that it will get an S stat in it's first evolution.
I intend on doing this as fast as possible, and documenting my progress in this thread. Does anyone have any advice for someone attempting such an undertaking. Time and patience I know will be key.. but has anyone who has attempted a similar feat have any advice for me along the way?
Right now I just have one question. If loading a new game with a previous chao file, if hero and dark races have already been unlocked and there are hero/dark chao in the garden, will a new chao have to be raised in order to unlock these again? I am trying to figure out the logistic advantages of having a chao with all stats including hidden stats maxed so I can determine if my advantage is enough to sub 9 hours on the full run.
Also, do chao still age normally if they're in a different garden than you or if they're in kindergarten while you're not in the school?
Thank you for all who help and who follow the chronicles of my undertaking!
Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Chao
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
I am familiar with Talon's work, and as you also mentioned, he starts with chao from scratch, so for you to compete in that regard with him, you would to. I am sure you are aware of this, and have given thought to it, I just want to be sure that is established. Having a pre-set high stat chao should definitely reduce a fair amount of time, and I would think cut an hour or more off your time.
Anyway, getting a perfect, all S-chao is immensely difficult task (also, it being a chaos chao is unnecessary, unless you plan on abusing or starving it.) Other users have mentioned attempts, however very few have followed through in making it. And to clarify, there is a difference between an all S chao and a perfect stat chao. A perfect stat (3266 in each stat) chao is described in depth here:
http://chao.hippotank.com/sa2b/stats
In short, making a perfect stat chao requires an absurd amount of luck/resetting, to get +30 every level up, and reincarnating multiple times, since chao keep 10% of their prior stat total upon reincarnation. My advise is, there is no reason to try and get a perfect stat chao- it may be faster, but the time input is absurdly disproportionate compared to the small amount of time gained. Granted, to clarify, a chao hardly needs to be all S to win races quickly anyway (although I do understand you want every possible second of advantage.)
So as the page I linked to you described, there are two ways to get an all S chao, of which a combination is what will happen. You chao will indeed gain an S rank in swim, and can pass that on to its child. So, one, very time consuming way to get an all S chao is to reincarnate it, and evolve it repeatedly until it gets to S in all stats, but that is most definitely the slowest way. The other way, breeding, and requires some luck, since you S-swim chao, when bread, could pass on an A rank, or an S rank to the child, or the mother could pass on its, probably worse, rank. So that requires luck, but is definitely faster, even with resetting. The page will describe the details.
To answer your final question, the hero and dark races and gardens will remain unlocked. The chao file is separate from the main file in most regards (emblems for race completion being on of the exceptions.)
I think that covers it. I hope it goes well, and feel free to ask all questions that arise.
Anyway, getting a perfect, all S-chao is immensely difficult task (also, it being a chaos chao is unnecessary, unless you plan on abusing or starving it.) Other users have mentioned attempts, however very few have followed through in making it. And to clarify, there is a difference between an all S chao and a perfect stat chao. A perfect stat (3266 in each stat) chao is described in depth here:
http://chao.hippotank.com/sa2b/stats
In short, making a perfect stat chao requires an absurd amount of luck/resetting, to get +30 every level up, and reincarnating multiple times, since chao keep 10% of their prior stat total upon reincarnation. My advise is, there is no reason to try and get a perfect stat chao- it may be faster, but the time input is absurdly disproportionate compared to the small amount of time gained. Granted, to clarify, a chao hardly needs to be all S to win races quickly anyway (although I do understand you want every possible second of advantage.)
So as the page I linked to you described, there are two ways to get an all S chao, of which a combination is what will happen. You chao will indeed gain an S rank in swim, and can pass that on to its child. So, one, very time consuming way to get an all S chao is to reincarnate it, and evolve it repeatedly until it gets to S in all stats, but that is most definitely the slowest way. The other way, breeding, and requires some luck, since you S-swim chao, when bread, could pass on an A rank, or an S rank to the child, or the mother could pass on its, probably worse, rank. So that requires luck, but is definitely faster, even with resetting. The page will describe the details.
To answer your final question, the hero and dark races and gardens will remain unlocked. The chao file is separate from the main file in most regards (emblems for race completion being on of the exceptions.)
I think that covers it. I hope it goes well, and feel free to ask all questions that arise.
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
I am aware that talon is doing another category. I just want to finish a fast as possible 100% run using a pre-raised chao, which means the higher the stats are, the more time saved. I know reincarnating so many times and resetting every time I don't get a boost of 30 will take a while, but I think I have the patience to see it through. It'll be a slow process for sure. I just want it to be a chaos chao because I don't want it to die for any reason after I am done building it up. That would be a tragedy..
I have a couple more questions, though
Do personalities (short-tempered, naive, cry baby, etc..) have any advantages/disadvantages? Will intelligence and luck be maxed in the process of maxing the other stats? Do chao still age if they're in a different garden than you are at the time? And lastly (for now) can only neutral chao compete in every competition? Or can any chao compete in any race? Also, how in particular is the stamina stat raised?
I have a couple more questions, though
Do personalities (short-tempered, naive, cry baby, etc..) have any advantages/disadvantages? Will intelligence and luck be maxed in the process of maxing the other stats? Do chao still age if they're in a different garden than you are at the time? And lastly (for now) can only neutral chao compete in every competition? Or can any chao compete in any race? Also, how in particular is the stamina stat raised?
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MintyMyndi
- Evolved Chao
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:18 pm
- Motto: Hooray for Earth!
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
The personalities don't affect performance, but big eater is useful because force feeding is easier, raising stamina and evolving the Chao faster.
Intelligence and luck should be maxed, as they each increase by about 2 squares for every animal given, regardless of which animal. It takes five to increase a level in each, and 2-4 to increase a level of a visible stat, so they should be maxed after two stats are maxed.
Chao in inactive gardens do not age, nor do they in Kindergarten or the lobby.
The Hero Race and Dark Race (unlocked at the same time once both gardens are unlocked) can be accessed by their respective alignment and neutral. Basically, the opposite cannot enter. All others can be accessed by all three.
Stamina is raised by eating. Fruits that grow on trees from the Strong Seed in the Black Market raise it faster. Force feeding has no long-term negative effects.
Good luck with this, you're certainly going to need it. It can be hard getting your Chao leveled just right. But make sure all stats are leveled before reincarnation- that'll help it reach its full potential.
Intelligence and luck should be maxed, as they each increase by about 2 squares for every animal given, regardless of which animal. It takes five to increase a level in each, and 2-4 to increase a level of a visible stat, so they should be maxed after two stats are maxed.
Chao in inactive gardens do not age, nor do they in Kindergarten or the lobby.
The Hero Race and Dark Race (unlocked at the same time once both gardens are unlocked) can be accessed by their respective alignment and neutral. Basically, the opposite cannot enter. All others can be accessed by all three.
Stamina is raised by eating. Fruits that grow on trees from the Strong Seed in the Black Market raise it faster. Force feeding has no long-term negative effects.
Good luck with this, you're certainly going to need it. It can be hard getting your Chao leveled just right. But make sure all stats are leveled before reincarnation- that'll help it reach its full potential.
Have you seen the alternate victory dance in Chao Karate?
http://youtu.be/dyxcEji3-0I (my video)
http://youtu.be/FpO6Wg84NiM (better quality, thanks to FrankT)
http://youtu.be/dyxcEji3-0I (my video)
http://youtu.be/FpO6Wg84NiM (better quality, thanks to FrankT)
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
Thank you :) I appreciate the useful information all around so far.
If I'm doing my math right, it should take somewhere in the neighborhood of 9825 resets on average to max the stats of the chao after I'm done breeding it to have all S grades. Calling this an arduous task is an understatement. If I'm correct, the steps to get to a neutral aligned, perfect stat, all-S Chaos chao from where I'm at now (I have two chao, one with an S in Swim and one with an S in run) are:
1. Find two chao with an A grade in fly and power, respectively, raise them in their A stat so that it becomes an S upon first evolution.
2. Breed combinations of the S-Chao until I have two chao with SSxxx and xxSSx grades.
3. Breed combinations of these chao until I have two chao with SSSxx and xSSSx grades.
4. Breed combinations of these chao until I have a chao with SSSSx grades.
5. Reincarnate this chao, focusing on stamina with each reincarnation until it has all-S grades. have chao win crab pool race and stump valley to be able to plant seeds, plant four strong seeds in hero garden.
6. Reincarnate the All-S chao three times, raising it's stats to maximum in each lifetime. (Using resets to ensure each level up adds 30 points to the given stat)
7. On the chao's fourth life, align to neutral before it's first evolution, then feed one of every animal (ensuring that the chao gains 30 in each stat upon leveling) after waiting, chao should evolve into chaos chao.
8. Raise chaos chao to level 99 in each stat using resets to ensure each level up adds 30 points to the given stat.
Am I leaving anything out? Overlooking anything? Also, at what age does a chao evolve into a chaos chao?
If I'm doing my math right, it should take somewhere in the neighborhood of 9825 resets on average to max the stats of the chao after I'm done breeding it to have all S grades. Calling this an arduous task is an understatement. If I'm correct, the steps to get to a neutral aligned, perfect stat, all-S Chaos chao from where I'm at now (I have two chao, one with an S in Swim and one with an S in run) are:
1. Find two chao with an A grade in fly and power, respectively, raise them in their A stat so that it becomes an S upon first evolution.
2. Breed combinations of the S-Chao until I have two chao with SSxxx and xxSSx grades.
3. Breed combinations of these chao until I have two chao with SSSxx and xSSSx grades.
4. Breed combinations of these chao until I have a chao with SSSSx grades.
5. Reincarnate this chao, focusing on stamina with each reincarnation until it has all-S grades. have chao win crab pool race and stump valley to be able to plant seeds, plant four strong seeds in hero garden.
6. Reincarnate the All-S chao three times, raising it's stats to maximum in each lifetime. (Using resets to ensure each level up adds 30 points to the given stat)
7. On the chao's fourth life, align to neutral before it's first evolution, then feed one of every animal (ensuring that the chao gains 30 in each stat upon leveling) after waiting, chao should evolve into chaos chao.
8. Raise chaos chao to level 99 in each stat using resets to ensure each level up adds 30 points to the given stat.
Am I leaving anything out? Overlooking anything? Also, at what age does a chao evolve into a chaos chao?
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
To add to MintyMyndi's comment on Intelligence and Luck growth, the chao will be maxed, however chao also have grades for those two stats, affecting how much they grow, but they are hidden. The only real way to see it would be hackery. Granted, Intelligence and Luck's affect on the race are comparatively minimal.
Also, you are playing on the Gamecube, yes? You mentioned the GC above. If on the HD release, though, Hero Garden fruit raise stamina more (odd glitch) so that would be beneficial.
To the above, I would suggest making the parent SSxxx and xxSSx chao, or some other chao as a side project, to be hero and dark chao, so as to get the Hero and Dark gardens as soon as possible, and to multitask in that regard.
And a chao evolves into a chaos chao at the same time it would for its first evolution normally. This occurs in the neighborhood of 1 year old, as described by the doctor.
Just make sure the chao is very happy. It should be enough since it reincarnated so many times, but the happiness threshold for a chaos chao is higher than that for reincarnation (not absurdly so, just enough that if you are not careful, it could go wrong.) Another thing for the chaos chao evolution, the chao must be poised to evolve into a "None" chao, the evolution to raise stamina. This leads to the advise to not give it anymore than the necessary 30 animals before the evolution. That is not required, but you then have to balance the chao's stat sliders (explained on main site under Evolution) before the evolution.
That all being said, I wish you the best of luck. This is going to be an unpleasant task, and as I mentioned above, some users have made the claim that they would make a perfect chao, and none have actually done so. I am not saying you are a quitter, I am just wishing you luck.
Also, you are playing on the Gamecube, yes? You mentioned the GC above. If on the HD release, though, Hero Garden fruit raise stamina more (odd glitch) so that would be beneficial.
To the above, I would suggest making the parent SSxxx and xxSSx chao, or some other chao as a side project, to be hero and dark chao, so as to get the Hero and Dark gardens as soon as possible, and to multitask in that regard.
And a chao evolves into a chaos chao at the same time it would for its first evolution normally. This occurs in the neighborhood of 1 year old, as described by the doctor.
Just make sure the chao is very happy. It should be enough since it reincarnated so many times, but the happiness threshold for a chaos chao is higher than that for reincarnation (not absurdly so, just enough that if you are not careful, it could go wrong.) Another thing for the chaos chao evolution, the chao must be poised to evolve into a "None" chao, the evolution to raise stamina. This leads to the advise to not give it anymore than the necessary 30 animals before the evolution. That is not required, but you then have to balance the chao's stat sliders (explained on main site under Evolution) before the evolution.
That all being said, I wish you the best of luck. This is going to be an unpleasant task, and as I mentioned above, some users have made the claim that they would make a perfect chao, and none have actually done so. I am not saying you are a quitter, I am just wishing you luck.
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
Thank you for the information and for the encouragement. I am playing on the GC release, but I have played and gotten 180 emblems on the HD and DC releases as well fairly recently. I was wondering why the hero fruit wasn't raising stamina like it did in the HD release, that was very handy. I know it will be a very arduous task to perfect stats and that getting an all-S chao to build on will be the easy part. If intelligence and luck have hidden grades as well, I'll just have to work with it.. What can I do? My progress is as follows:
I've gotten to the point where I am concentrating on evolving two chao to mate, an SSxxx and an xxASx that will be an xxSSx upon evolution. When I finally finish I'm considering making a video to document the task. If I have any questions I'll be sure to follow up with them, and to keep this thread posted on my progress. I'm trying to think of any way I can to expedite the reset process.
EDIT: Okay I have two questions.
1. At what age will my final chao evolve into a chaos chao? Will it evolve at the same time it chooses it's alignment, or later?
2. (A bit unrelated to the subject) If I connect Sonic Advance 2 to SA2B, can I still unlock the maria theme? I ask because I only have the japanese version of sonic advance 1, so it seems that I cannot connect and unlock it otherwise.
I've gotten to the point where I am concentrating on evolving two chao to mate, an SSxxx and an xxASx that will be an xxSSx upon evolution. When I finally finish I'm considering making a video to document the task. If I have any questions I'll be sure to follow up with them, and to keep this thread posted on my progress. I'm trying to think of any way I can to expedite the reset process.
EDIT: Okay I have two questions.
1. At what age will my final chao evolve into a chaos chao? Will it evolve at the same time it chooses it's alignment, or later?
2. (A bit unrelated to the subject) If I connect Sonic Advance 2 to SA2B, can I still unlock the maria theme? I ask because I only have the japanese version of sonic advance 1, so it seems that I cannot connect and unlock it otherwise.
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
Okay I now have two chao I'm getting ready to breed, one with SDSSS and one with SSSAA, hopefully to yield one with Four S's and one A so that I can evolve it into an all S-chao, then I'll clone that and breed them together until I can hatch a newborn all S chao. So that part is almost over, then I'll be prepping for the 10,000 resets part.. 
By the way, can anyone tell me at what age will my final chao evolve into a chaos chao? Will it evolve at the same time it chooses it's alignment, or later? I know I need to raise it into a chaos chao on it's fourth life, I'm just a bit worried that it'll try to reincarnate itself before I'm done raising all stats to level 99. But with the rate I'll be giving it strong fruit, I probably shouldn't worry about it too much.
Also, method 1 here: http://chao.hippotank.com/sa2b/cloning-chao doesn't work, as you can't copy chao data
By the way, can anyone tell me at what age will my final chao evolve into a chaos chao? Will it evolve at the same time it chooses it's alignment, or later? I know I need to raise it into a chaos chao on it's fourth life, I'm just a bit worried that it'll try to reincarnate itself before I'm done raising all stats to level 99. But with the rate I'll be giving it strong fruit, I probably shouldn't worry about it too much.
Also, method 1 here: http://chao.hippotank.com/sa2b/cloning-chao doesn't work, as you can't copy chao data
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
I have never tried the first method, but that is unfortunate that it is not working.
Anyway, a chao reincarnates in the neighborhood of 5 years old, but it varies between chao. Raising its stats to Level 99 is pretty easy in that time, except for stamina, which I sometimes don't have at max level by the time of reincarnation. As long as you are persistent at feeding, you should be fine.
A chao becomes a chaos chao at the same time of its first evolution, in its 3rd+ life, so about at age one, on the life that you are preparing to make it a Chaos chao. A chao's alignment is not locked into place into its first evolution either.
Anyway, a chao reincarnates in the neighborhood of 5 years old, but it varies between chao. Raising its stats to Level 99 is pretty easy in that time, except for stamina, which I sometimes don't have at max level by the time of reincarnation. As long as you are persistent at feeding, you should be fine.
A chao becomes a chaos chao at the same time of its first evolution, in its 3rd+ life, so about at age one, on the life that you are preparing to make it a Chaos chao. A chao's alignment is not locked into place into its first evolution either.
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
That's good to know. Do the strong trees always take so long to sprout fruit? It seems like it's taking a while to sprout fruit, but I have been resetting quite a bit, so that might be why. That's good to know that if I'm persistent at feeding then I shouldn't worry. I'm definitely moving as quick as I can to find and feed the chao upon resets to save time. If the chao falls asleep, should I wake it up to feed it or let it sleep it's five minutes or whatever until it wakes up?
On that note, I've finally hatched a newborn all-S chao, and over the last forty minutes I've managed to raise 7 levels up 30 points. So there's 7 down.. 1958 to go. I can definitely see why so few have been successful at this, it's very time consuming. I intend to clone the chao at intervals of every 50 levels so just in case anything goes wrong, I have a backup to fall back on. Really hoping that doesn't happen though, and as long as I keep resetting when it's not 30 and saving when it is then it shouldn't.
So I suppose I'll keep a level tracker here and update it every few days along with any questions I may have.
Right now I'm at 7/1965, but I JUST finished the setup process.
When you say that the alignment isn't locked into place, do you mean that with each reincarnation you can change it to hero/dark/neutral as long as you align it that way in it's first year? Because I'm really only concerned about aligning it properly before making it into a chaos chao in its last reincarnation.
On that note, I've finally hatched a newborn all-S chao, and over the last forty minutes I've managed to raise 7 levels up 30 points. So there's 7 down.. 1958 to go. I can definitely see why so few have been successful at this, it's very time consuming. I intend to clone the chao at intervals of every 50 levels so just in case anything goes wrong, I have a backup to fall back on. Really hoping that doesn't happen though, and as long as I keep resetting when it's not 30 and saving when it is then it shouldn't.
So I suppose I'll keep a level tracker here and update it every few days along with any questions I may have.
Right now I'm at 7/1965, but I JUST finished the setup process.
When you say that the alignment isn't locked into place, do you mean that with each reincarnation you can change it to hero/dark/neutral as long as you align it that way in it's first year? Because I'm really only concerned about aligning it properly before making it into a chaos chao in its last reincarnation.
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
I would say let the chao sleep. Otherwise you have to worry about its happiness, and you should still be able to maximize the stamina stat.
Just so you know, for the first two lives, you don't have to get +30 on every level up, just most. This was pointed out by a user a little while ago. The math is here:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=45512
That should make it slightly less difficult (still pretty difficult.)
And to your last question, yes. Its alignment can be changed every first evolution, and as long as it is neutral by its last life, you are set.
Just so you know, for the first two lives, you don't have to get +30 on every level up, just most. This was pointed out by a user a little while ago. The math is here:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=45512
That should make it slightly less difficult (still pretty difficult.)
And to your last question, yes. Its alignment can be changed every first evolution, and as long as it is neutral by its last life, you are set.
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
THANK YOU so much for your replies and help. That will surely save me loads of time in the end. I think I'll go for the first 40-50 levels in each stat as 30's, then I'll begin accepting 29's if they appear. Then I can adjust accordingly towards the higher levels so that I reach the minimum reincarnation values. As far as progress is concerned, I just passed 1% of the way there.. I'll be grinding this out later tonight after I rest. Hopefully letting him sleep doesn't keep me from maxing him out before he reincarnates, but I'm definitely moving quick enough I think.
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MintyMyndi
- Evolved Chao
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:18 pm
- Motto: Hooray for Earth!
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
Actually, most of the time when you pet a Chao while it's still doing the "falling asleep" animation, it'll react as if nothing happened (probably because it wasn't "asleep" yet) and walk away. If you leave it alone, it'll fall asleep as soon as it stops walking, but you can make it finish the current fruit. It'll fall asleep immediately after eating, whether it's gone or not, so if it throws, quickly pet it. The "falling asleep" animation lasts while your Chao falls and for a few seconds on the ground. If it gets the opportunity to make the animation again after being awoken, it has a tendency to become tired (as if awoken) anyway, even if it is still falling. This stops when it's allowed to finish a nap. All of this was accidental discoveries from personal experience. I use it to my advantage! I hope I did a good job of explaining.
Also, don't worry about time to max stamina. I have a Chao that I force-fed, only occasionally using strong fruit, making sure every waking moment involved fruit being crammed down his throat. His level is in the 50s or 60s at age 1. I maxed his other stats and adjusted his second evo. That's more than halfway there, and I decided to let him have a break. His evo's fully maxed.
Also, don't worry about time to max stamina. I have a Chao that I force-fed, only occasionally using strong fruit, making sure every waking moment involved fruit being crammed down his throat. His level is in the 50s or 60s at age 1. I maxed his other stats and adjusted his second evo. That's more than halfway there, and I decided to let him have a break. His evo's fully maxed.
Have you seen the alternate victory dance in Chao Karate?
http://youtu.be/dyxcEji3-0I (my video)
http://youtu.be/FpO6Wg84NiM (better quality, thanks to FrankT)
http://youtu.be/dyxcEji3-0I (my video)
http://youtu.be/FpO6Wg84NiM (better quality, thanks to FrankT)
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
I'm a bit worried still for now, as he transformed into a hero chao at level 15 stamina. I'm hoping I have enough time, but I don't understand how he transformed so quickly.. I mean I even got the fruit to feed him from another garden so I didn't have to shake trees and waste time.. But this is going to be quite an effort even with the time I gain from the leniency factored in. I plan on maxing the stamina tonight and then checking the age and cloning the chao. Still grinding levels.. I expect this to take a few weeks at least.
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
He evolved so quickly because lots of fruit decreases the time it takes for the chao to first evolve, but increases the overall lifespan of the chao (by slight amounts, but when you feed as much as you have, it can make a fair amount of difference.) Chances are you chao is still pretty young.
Re: Chronicling the trials to a perfect stat, All-S Chaos Ch
Still grinding away. 31 levels / 1965. I decided to work on this alongside practicing my weak points in the run, which are really the initial A-rank strats for certain characters without upgrades and bosses without upgrades. It wouldn't surprise me all that much if this ends up taking the rest of the year off and on to complete.. I won't give up though