Zygarde question

[Triert]

Tier lists are meaningless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY

[Pols Voice]

So you're saying a team of non legend can take on a team of 6 event arceus? And that legends should be allowed in tournaments to make things unfair for those who refuse to use legends? That's what I'm getting from that statement. Also if tier lists were bs then in brawl tournaments the meta night user is guaranteed to win to to it being extremely broken.

[Triert]

There's a difference between knowing what's in front of you and not predicting a fish is going to annihilate you.

[Tobi]

Really?! They are full legend?! I thought they were pseudo, due to their playability in tournaments.

O.o ROTOM IS A LEGENDARY?!?!?!?!

Let me tell you something about metagame. This went offtopic enough for it anyway.

Regis are legends, but they are not ubers, like stated before. Ubers is a term used by Smogon. Smogon are people who created their metagame with terms like Uber, OU, UU and NU. They make their own rules, like, ubers can't be used in OU battles, which is pretty much all competitive battles from my understanding. Garchomp has been banned from OU and is considered a Uber thanks to his stats or something. They find Garchomp too unfair, so they threw him in the Uber tier with most legendaries.

The regis aren't ubers, since their stats come too close to regular pokes. They aren't strong enough to amount to pokes like Groudon.

Recently, Mega Gengar and Mega Khan have been banned from OU as well, and they are considering to ban Mega Lucario.


Rotom is not considered a legendary, since it's breedable. Sure, so is Manaphy, but you can only create Phione, which doesn't evolve into Manaphy.


Point is: Smogon makes tiers that they put rules on of how to play the game. You don't have to listen to it, but the majority does, so you might get bashed for it if you don't follow their rules. But why would you care, right? I personally avoid using legendaries as a whole. I will use Garchomp or any other pokes banned from OU, but not the regis.

[Pols Voice]

When was garchomp banned from official tournaments?

[Tobi]

Why are Garchomp and Wobbuffet banned?
Garchomp and Wobbuffet/Wynaut are the only two/three Pokemon deemed Uber who are not legendary. Both have similar reasons. Neither of them have counters. Wobbuffet's ability, Shadow Tag, prevents switch-outs and draws battles into unneccessary lengths of time.

Garchomp's ban was established a few months after the dreadul "Yachechomp" set was created. Yachechomp is the name for a Garchomp holding a Yache Berry, one of the 16 berries that decreases the damage of a super effective attack. Yache Berry decreases the power of Ice attacks. This berry essentially makes it so that no Pokemon can successfully switch into battle against Garchomp and defeat him.

Source: http://projectpokemon.org/forums/showth ... discussion

Garchomp is also banned because he can have Sand Veil, I think they are considering to allow Rough Skin Garchomp. I don't go on Smogon, but I hear stuff.

[Pols Voice]

Then those with shell smash should be banned because cloister + shell smash = bye garchomp, even with yache berry it only protects the first hit of all 5 guaranteed to hit you.

[Triert]

The tier list doesn't make sense to me, they banned evasion moves but have yet to ban Togekiss despite its moveset relying on paralyzing and flinching the enemy to death.

[Pols Voice]

Damnit!! Beeza can't go into tournaments now then :c because it relies on doubleteam and defed order. Mind you that's one hell of a combo once its set up.

[Tobi]

The tier list doesn't make sense to me, they banned evasion moves but have yet to ban Togekiss despite its moveset relying on paralyzing and flinching the enemy to death.

And confuse.

And yeah evasions being banned is so ****ing ridiculous, because you can't ban crits, which is also luck based. Might as well ban night slash, scope lens, super luck and all that jazz.

[Pols Voice]

Easy fix, ban all legends and nothing else sheesh.

[Triert]

What about Mega Blaziken, Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan.

Not to mention some other mega's too, and regular pokemon that make the entire metagame have to revolve on a counter strategy. Not to mention some legendaries such as articuno, moltres, and ho-oh can be destroyed by stealth rock.

[Tobi]

^You could run a counter with rapid spin or defog.

I'm just saying that most megas are pretty overpowered. They are supposed to be strong, and they are just part of the game. You can only mega evolve once a battle, so it's not like you can run a mega team. If most people decide to run mega blaziken, gengar, khan or lucario, so be it.

I just find that Smogon is a bunch of butthurt people that are equal to the SSB players that only play no items 3 stock final destination. You will always find a team that you can't counter with yours, so what's the point of eliminating all possibilities. Eventually, smogon metagame will come down to offensive moves only and no items or something, so it all comes down to diversity, stats (including evs and all) and switching.

[EvilPinkamina]

I personally like how smogon's got their competitive set up. It prevents the game from being just a stale "send my legends at your legends" type game and allows more variety of pokemon. That being said, no one is forcing stricrly OU, it is just th competitive single battle format. (I will try and back up my comments once I get on internet. Gotta use phone for now)

[Triert]

Smogons idea of a metagame constantly bites its own tail, it's the only sort there is however.

[EvilPinkamina]

Okay, internet finally. As I was saying. Smogon's meta game set the way it is to allow variety in teams. Now, this sounds stupid. Why would they ban pokemon if they wanted variety? Well, simply put, these pokemon were either forcing them to be used on a ton of teams due to the lack of a viable counter or forcing teams to build around these pokemon. Note that Gen VI's competitive is still new, so its not unlikely that some of these bans will be revoked if a meta game shift happens. They do this so that the skill aspect shows more over the luck aspects, while trying to keep the gameplay still feeling like pokemon.

Also, there is talk of Woppuffet and Garchomp being banned, but as of the time of writing this, the XY Official Smogon ban list (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/of ... t.3491371/) shows that neither are currently banned from OU.

[Tobi]

It prevents the game from being just a stale "send my legends at your legends" type game and allows more variety of pokemon. That being said, no one is forcing stricrly OU, it is just th competitive single battle format.

I don't believe many people use legends, except 12 year olds that think they will win just because they use legends. I believe most players would rather go with some more diversity on their own and use pokemon they like. Weavile is my favorite pokemon, and I intend to use it, even though he has so many weaknesses and can be outpowered by most other pokemon. I feel that tiers actually restrict you more to use those pokemon, like UU teams.

Smogon's meta game set the way it is to allow variety in teams. Now, this sounds stupid. Why would they ban pokemon if they wanted variety? Well, simply put, these pokemon were either forcing them to be used on a ton of teams due to the lack of a viable counter or forcing teams to build around these pokemon.

It's kind of lame to put it that way, since that's pretty situational. You're always kind of building teams to get around what you might face. Sure, you'd need more specific pokemon to counter it if you only know 1 way to do it, but I just don't see it being fair to ban it, which is why I don't listen to smogon.

I also love how in the mega khan topic, they put a moveset for an unfair mega khan in the first post. I'm so tempted to use that moveset now, just to spite people.

Also, there is talk of Woppuffet and Garchomp being banned, but as of the time of writing this, the XY Official Smogon ban list (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/of ... t.3491371/) shows that neither are currently banned from OU.

Now that's peculiar. I somewhere read that they only wanted to ban sand veil garchomp for evasion reasons, while rough skin garchomp WAS allowed. I always thought that in the past garchomp was too op for his stats, did they change their minds about that now? What happened?

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

^I thought most serious competitive battlers didn't use Legendaries either because most unofficial tier lists put many of the better Legendaries in the Uber tier while the remainder have trouble being competitive against properly trained mons.

Of course, as unbalanced as Pokemon is in general, you can't have a true "Anything Goes" competition without the vast majority of mons being rendered absolutely worthless in battle.

That said, I kind of wonder how a multi-tier competition might go. One simple variation I can think of is all battles bing 6-on-6, with teams consisting of at most 1 uber and at least 3 Underused or lower.

A more complicated variant of a multi-tier competition, and one that I think would really test one's battling prowess:
-Each competitor builds several teams.
-Each team is tailored to a different rule set.
-Possible Rule Sets might include: Uber/Anything Goes, Standard, Underused, Neverused, Little Cup.
-If the number of competitors is sufficiently large, have an elimination round where each match consists of a number of 1-on-1 battles, one battle per rule set.
-Once the field is narrowed to a reasonable number, matches switch to a seiries of 3-on-3 battles.
-The finals consist of a series of 6-on-6 battles.
-Match outcomes take both number of battles won and pokemon surviing the match into consideration.
-With few, if any exceptions, every Pokemon would be viable under at least one rule set(Are there any reasonable rule sets under which the likes of Magikarp or Unown are viable?).
-Would also be interesting to include double, triple, and rotation battles in the mix, but we are already looking at a very time-consuming competition format.

For that matter, how many serious battlers actually play accross several tiers seriously instead of sticking to one preferred rule set?

[Tobi]

I think such battles would be nice, but more in the sense of how PBR did it. There was this one colosseum in which you were only allowed to use unevolved level 5 pokemon, which was very interesting, I must say! It'd be even better now that the eviolite is introduced.

And there's actually plenty of players that usually go for full OU team, I've seen a few competitive players with a uber team and I've heard so, so many people here talk about making a UU team, so...

[Pols Voice]

Unevolved pokes that can mega: Kanga, Mawile, and you can teach Kanga power-up punch, shadow claw, earthquake , and Giga impact (or keep comet punch if you are inclined, or egg move crush claw.)

[EvilPinkamina]

I think such battles would be nice, but more in the sense of how PBR did it. There was this one colosseum in which you were only allowed to use unevolved level 5 pokemon, which was very interesting, I must say! It'd be even better now that the eviolite is introduced.

That's called little cup. It's a thing

[Tobi]

Unevolved pokes that can mega: Kanga, Mawile, and you can teach Kanga power-up punch, shadow claw, earthquake , and Giga impact (or keep comet punch if you are inclined, or egg move crush claw.)

With unevolved I meant pokes that can evolve, but didn't. You should have figured that out when I was talking about eviolites instead of reading selectively.

That's called little cup. It's a thing

That's pretty expected since it was an original game mode, so it is bound to get copied at one point.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

Honestly, it would be nice if GameFreak included more PvP/Player versus halfway competent AI rule sets beyond either unrestricted or normalizing levels to 50/100 within the main games. I haven't played Any of the Console Battlers aside from Stadium GSC, but the Baby, Pika, Poke, and Prime Cups did add a bit of variety, and while I have never been all that good at the Battle Tower/Frontier/Subway/etc., I miss the feature Crystal's Battle Tower had with having separate challenges for every 10th level.