Smogon discussion (metagame)

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Do you like Smogon's metagame? (read post first, please)

Yes
2
17%
No
5
42%
I don't, but I do like their builds.
5
42%
 
Total votes: 12

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Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Few things before you enter or read this, please try to not argue in this too much. It's a discussion topic, not an argument topic. I just want to see some reasoning and opinions of other people on this subject. I also want to lure out the discussions on different threads to be held in this one instead, so there will be less pokemon topics offtopic.

For the people who don't know, Smogon is a community that created the most popular metagame among Pokemon games. Whenever you hear 'uber', 'OU' and 'UU', it's most likely about Smogon.

Part of this will be informative about what happened lately, while my opinion will be added as well. There's a tl;dr at the end of all the stuff Smogon did if you don't feel like hearing my opinion. I also want to add that I'm aware of that these aren't official rules and I don't have to listen to them, but the problem is that it's so popular, you might just get flamed at and shunned for not playing by their rules.

Now, before I start summing up what Smogon did, or is about to do, I want to say that I don't like Smogon. At all. To me, Smogon, as a metagame, is awful and egoistical. First I just didn't like it because people listened to their tiers, which prevented diversity and motivation to use the pokemon you love, because they put Garchomp in the uber tier for, what I found out, were ridiculous reasons and because the community tend to use their movesets and only theirs, so they won't learn but only do what the descriptions tell them to do.

Now let's take a look at what's currently banned:
Spoiler:
Pokemon

Arceus
Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-A
Dialga
Genesect
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Kyurem-W
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Shaymin-S
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom

Abilities

Moody

Items

Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite
This is the OU banlist, so they are considered ubers.
Blaziken is banned because Blaziken can speed boost + protect for extra speed boosts, can take out most of the meta game, can get off a free swords dance when people switch in their counter and blaziken gets a mega evolution on top of it. I can get behind that Blaziken is very strong, but I don't really see why it needs to be banned, I've seen it being countered easily with ease.
Mega gengar is banned because it prevents you from switching out, is very fast and strong and can destiny bond you on top of it. You can't switch in your counter until you lose one, and you will lose your counter to a destiny bond eventually anyway. It also has a lot of annoying moves like hypnosis, taunt and will-o-wisp. I've fought a mega gengar, and honestly, it is strong, but I did take it out and won the match.
Mega kangaskhan is banned because you have the ability to attack twice in a row, get double stat boosts from powerup punch for example, has great attacks, etc. I honestly think from here on, it starts going more and more downhill. I feel like it kills the diversity of using Pokemon. The fun thing about megas, in comparison to legends, is that you are restricted to using one in a battle. Mega kangaskhan is a strong pokemon, but it's not OP. If you keep banning more and more megas, there isn't a lot to choose from. It destroys the diversity, and not only that, you will just eventually end up banning the next strongest mega in line.
Mega lucario... Why IS mega lucario banned? I guess he is the strongest mega in line? Mega Lucario gets a big boost in his attack stats and gets an ability that increases STAB attacks. Sure, it's strong, but I don't get why it's banned.

My point is, most of these Megas are indeed very strong, but also VERY frail. A good play can easily take out these Megas. People might argue that diversity is destroyed because people feel like you need to run a counter all the time in case you encounter one of these pokemon. Honestly though, you need to run a counter for EVERYTHING. There is a counter for EVERYTHING. Protect? Feint. Gale wings? Quick guard. Sucker punch? Status move. Double team? Aerial ace. Stealth rock? Rapid spin. There is no move that's impossible to stop, and there's no strategy that's flawless. Why not ban Shedinja? If you don't run a status move or a move that doesn't hit it, you're going to lose. But that's the point of the game! You pretty much have a few options in these situations. You find a way around the strategy and beat it, you lose because you didn't run specific pokemon that could beat it, or you could prevent people from using it. Now here's some more on that subject, that I slightly implied earlier;

Evasion. You're not allowed to use evasion moves. No double team, no sand veil or snow cloak, nothing of that. Why? Because Smogon wants their metagame to be based on strategy, not luck. Garchomp having Sand veil was the whole reason why he was banned in the first place. I really don't understand why they are doing that. I can completely understand double team being annoying, but if you're REALLY THAT annoyed by it, run at least one pokemon that can counter it! Give your technician scizor aerial ace, take them right out. Run aerial ace, run shock wave, run feint attack, run shadow punch, run magnet bomb, run magical leaf, run swift... I just summed them all up. I know some people run aerial ace on Weavile for coverage, or on Scizor for coverage+technician, but if you don't run that, you're gonna have a hard time, sure, but the reason why no one runs it is because no one feels allowed to run double team. Then of course you're going to get pissed off when people run it, if you don't even think to bring at least one pokemon that knows a move that ignores evasion. I don't understand how not wanting to base anything on luck is relevant anyway. You can't stop luck being relevant. You can't stop crits from landing. You can't stop certain moves from always hitting. Will-o-wisp can miss. Highjump kick is even worse when it misses. Are they going to ban slash too because it has higher crit ratio?

Next to that they have also banned some things like not running leppa berry in combination with healing moves (making battles endless), having the ability moody (luck based), OHKO attacks (luck based, very, very luck based (can be countered by sturdy, so theres a way to stop it, many pokemon have sturdy)), not being allowed to put more than 1 pokemon of the opponent to sleep (they must be really butthurt at this) and not being allowed to use the same pokemon in one team (diversity, now I do like this rule). In conclusion I just feel like Smogon just tries to ban and ban more stuff because they don't want to deal with it, which makes me feel like they went from creating a system to destroying everything that they are scared of to encounter, and people just go with it.

Recently they are considering a new ban. I'm really drawing the line here. They want to ban swagger and prankster, or the combination of it, also called "SwagPlay", because it also empowers your foul play a lot. But wait. Mega Banette's ability is prankster... Oh, I guess that's the next one in line. Good job. Other pokemon such as male meowstic, klefki, etc are banned too (if they have this ability that is). So now you're taking away even MORE pokemon people like to use STRATEGICALLY. Funny thing is, they want to ban Swagger because it's chance based. Seriously? Swagger is based on luck? It increases attack and makes them confused. Handy for double battles when your partner has a lum berry or something. But how is it luck based? Oh wait, you must be talking about the confusion. Are you serious now? You're banning Swagger for causing a status? All statuses, except for poison and burn are chance based. It's so stupid that you're just going to ban it for just that reason.

Now there's one thing I want to add, where I really, REALLY draw the line. So, Smogon wants to have their community involved on this one, they want to gather opinions on if people think it should be banned. Let me just screenshot the message at the bottom.
Spoiler:
Image
What now? What I got out this is "Give your opinion, but if it's against ours, your post is deleted.". This just made me lose all my respect for Smogon as metagame.

TL;DR
Smogon banned Blaziken from OU.
Smogon banned Mega Gengar, Kangaskhan and Lucario from OU.
Smogon banned evasion, the ability moody, OHKO attacks, putting more than 1 opposing pokemon to sleep at the same time as long as you educed it, using 2 of the same pokemon and to use a leppa berry in combination with a health move.
Smogon is considering to ban Swagger, the ability Prankster, or the combination of it, asks the community for their opinion, but when it's against theirs, your post gets deleted.
Also, I don't like Smogon.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Blaziken is not only banned because speed boost + protect. He was banned because [link] and his counters are very niche or straight out suiciding a pokemon so you can revenge kill. Not to mention he was also banned in Gen 5, and since the checks to blaziken were actually NERFED, it would only make sense that he is banned.
Mega Gengar was banned for the same reason Wobuffett was in previous generations before you could see your opponents team before jumping into the fight, I think. I don't have a link to the page though.
Mega Kangaskahn was banned because it could easily 1-2Hit KO even the strongest physical walls with ease, is almost impossible to revenge kill with +2 sucker punch, and it forces you to run less versatile pokemon. [link]
I couldn't find any info on why Mega Lucario was banned, so I can't exactly see why other than overwhelming majority voted for it to be banned.

Most of these megas, while somewhat frail, all have niche counters that wouldn't be run outside of countering said pokemon, or are TOO MUCH of a risk to run. Feint only has 40 power, maybe having someone with technician run feint, but then people would run dig or bounce on blaziken. Quick guard? Literally just wasting a turn in single battles, and if they don't use a priority flying move (say they go flare blitz on talonflame instead of brave bird) then quick guard is useless. Using a status move will only work against sucker punch so long, and not many pokemon run more than 1 status move. Many moves that don't check accuracy (like aerial ace or swift) have too low a power to be useful in the OU metagame. Nothing is wrong with stealth rock, why would you even bring that up?

You mention garchomp being banned, but he's not. Evasion has always been banned in the meta to allow for strategy to be more important then "SPAM DOUBLE TEAM UNTIL I HAVE x2.5 EVASION AND KILL THEM!" Also, aerial ace wouldn't be nearly as viable vs something like a pikachu or aggron using double team. All the moves that don't check accuracy have an incredibly weak power for OU.

Smogon bans things that can make or break a game entirely of luck, and are designed to do so. OHKO moves are, as stated, incredibly luck based as well as moody, which is just straight up +2 for the cost of -1. every single turn.

Also, on the SwagPlay ban, you grabbed the part that supported your argument against it, but failed to mention that they ask for, and I quote, "civil posts and to back up your arguments with solid reasonings. Uninformed, unnecessarily rude and off-topic posts will be deleted and infracted without further warnings." Adding diversity is not specific enough to be considered a solid argument. (The full post, for anyone who wants to see it for themselves to get a proper opinion, is here)
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Triert »

What really if's me off about Smogon is how a moveset like Paraflinch Togekiss is perfectly legal but they hate double team.

Repeat, the Website that created a metagame attempting to make pokemon fair legalized a strategy that involves paralyzing and flinching an opponent to death using serene grace, thunder wave, and air slash.

Still, how do they expect anyone to discuss the swagmaster prankster strategy if they do that?

Also, certain pokemon break the metagame to the point that people had to make entire strategies dedicated to dealing with a single pokemon. The banned ones you mentioned typically end up being those kinds of pokemon. On one hand, people have to over prepare and over analyze the fact that someone might have a mega gengar ready to destroy them. On the other, they all get banished to Uber.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by LeafNinja »

^^^^^^Paraflinch Togekiss isn't that much of a problem. Its strategy falls flat against......every electric type with a base speed of 80+. Which includes, but is not limited to: Rotom and its appliance forms, Zapdos, Raikou, Raichu, Electivire, Manectric, Thundurus, Jolteon, Electrode, Galvantula.....and even the Pikaclones if you want to. Even without those, a mon who can shrug off an air slash (rock/steel-types) or outrun Togekiss (80+ base speed) and hit it with a super effective attack (rock/steel/ice/poison/electric-types) can get rid of it. It's no Skymin.

Megas like Khan and Lucario are borked because they have absurd movepool diversity which eliminates the chances you can counter them with one pokemon like...Skarmory. It's cooked by Fire Punch from Khan and Blaze Kick from Lucario. The same goes for Forretress.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

EvilPinkamina wrote:Blaziken is not only banned because speed boost + protect. He was banned because [link] and his counters are very niche or straight out suiciding a pokemon so you can revenge kill. Not to mention he was also banned in Gen 5, and since the checks to blaziken were actually NERFED, it would only make sense that he is banned.
Mega Gengar was banned for the same reason Wobuffett was in previous generations before you could see your opponents team before jumping into the fight, I think. I don't have a link to the page though.
Mega Kangaskahn was banned because it could easily 1-2Hit KO even the strongest physical walls with ease, is almost impossible to revenge kill with +2 sucker punch, and it forces you to run less versatile pokemon. [link]
I couldn't find any info on why Mega Lucario was banned, so I can't exactly see why other than overwhelming majority voted for it to be banned.

Most of these megas, while somewhat frail, all have niche counters that wouldn't be run outside of countering said pokemon, or are TOO MUCH of a risk to run. Feint only has 40 power, maybe having someone with technician run feint, but then people would run dig or bounce on blaziken. Quick guard? Literally just wasting a turn in single battles, and if they don't use a priority flying move (say they go flare blitz on talonflame instead of brave bird) then quick guard is useless. Using a status move will only work against sucker punch so long, and not many pokemon run more than 1 status move. Many moves that don't check accuracy (like aerial ace or swift) have too low a power to be useful in the OU metagame. Nothing is wrong with stealth rock, why would you even bring that up?

You mention garchomp being banned, but he's not. Evasion has always been banned in the meta to allow for strategy to be more important then "SPAM DOUBLE TEAM UNTIL I HAVE x2.5 EVASION AND KILL THEM!" Also, aerial ace wouldn't be nearly as viable vs something like a pikachu or aggron using double team. All the moves that don't check accuracy have an incredibly weak power for OU.

Smogon bans things that can make or break a game entirely of luck, and are designed to do so. OHKO moves are, as stated, incredibly luck based as well as moody, which is just straight up +2 for the cost of -1. every single turn.

Also, on the SwagPlay ban, you grabbed the part that supported your argument against it, but failed to mention that they ask for, and I quote, "civil posts and to back up your arguments with solid reasonings. Uninformed, unnecessarily rude and off-topic posts will be deleted and infracted without further warnings." Adding diversity is not specific enough to be considered a solid argument. (The full post, for anyone who wants to see it for themselves to get a proper opinion, is here)
I never said Blaziken was banned for just that reason. To me, all you need to do is outspeed a Blaziken. Belly drum + aqua jet probably takes it out, since the first protect is predictable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Blaziken doesn't learn priority moves. Even if so, I haven't seen them. Azumarill is also one of the most used, I can only imagine how many times Blaziken should have been countered by one. Though you could take that option down with a sun team, but there's more ways.
Wobuffett being banned is also something odd, because his moves are super predictable. You're ****ed though if you run an assault vest at that point or something. So could Mega Gengar be. And if you just happen to not run the counter, then you have a problem! You lose! That happens, you know, and you should be able to accept that you lose now and then. Learn from your mistakes. You should know by now every Mega Gengar runs the same, and if they don't, you're caught off guard because it doesn't do what you expect it to do, and that's strategic play. That's why you don't need to just use Smogon's builds, you are stuck as soon as something counters it in a way you didn't expect.
Mega Kangaskhan is obviously pretty strong, but I bet there's enough counters. What about running a ghost with substitute? The sucker punch is obvious. It most likely runs stab and powerup punch, that's predictable. Let's say, Gengar with substitute and will-o-wisp should easily take it out, while it also lowers his attack.
I think that's actually the only reason it was banned. I still don't see many reasons to do so though.

Not sure what you mean by that, Skarmory is one of those counters, I'd love to run a Skarmory outside of just countering a mega, for example. Feint is indeed weak, but you could indeed run technician with it, or run... what's it called, shadow force? Breaks through protects, though it unfortunately takes a turn to attack, so a protect following up is something you wouldn't do. And if people run dig or bounce, then that just created some more diversity. They are limited to 4 moves, so that takes away things they can counter. Well if no one runs Quick guard, then it's an unexpected move for, say, double battles when people run a gale wings Talonflame, because that IS predictable. Kind of what it's about, isn't it? Sucker punch is limited to 5 (8 with PP up I believe) PP, so you can easily end up wearing it out with status moves. For example, Mega Khan, will have to attack using something else eventually. If it's against a ghost, it's pretty lost to do so, unless it runs something that else that isn't normal or fight. You could either predict he's gonna try something else, which seems unlikely, or she switches out. Accuracy ignoring moves like aerial ace and all indeed have low power, because, idk, they always hit? You could either miss the first 3 thunderbolts due to double team abusers, or hit shock wave 3 times. Stealth rock IS a bother if you have to switch out a lot, specially if you run Volcarona, nearly half your HP gets taken away by just switching in. It also destroys focus sash, which is a pain. It can seriously be your death, but apparently that's strategic. I can understand, because it's not luck based, you just get hit either way.

Garchomp is unbanned, just sand veil is banned. Pikachu that runs double team can still be hit pretty well with a technician aerial ace, Pikachu is super frail. Aggron could be taken out by neutral moves just as well. It's not any different, if you let it set up! Sigilyph is also super dangerous when you let it set up, the difference is that you can at least hit. IF you hit in a double team set up, it's gonna do a lot of damage.

Then why not ban critical hit increasers? Ban night slash, ban slash, ban psycho cut, ban leaf blade, etc. I believe scope lens is already banned? Correct me if I'm wrong. All status afflictions should be banned too. Paralyze causes not only slowness, there's a huge chance you can't attack. Same goes for frozen, sleeping, confusion and attraction. Now I do know frozen can be broken with the right moves and isn't guaranteed to happen by any move, sleeping can be abused by sleep talk and rest, and is already at the point that you can't put more than one to sleep at the same time, confusion even HITS you when you don't attack (though they seem to ban swagger now, I assume confusion just goes with it) and attraction is gender based, but it's still all chance. Poison is just damage that's increasing if you're on the field too long and burn does damage and lowers attack, that's set, no chance included. Might as well also ban all moves under a 100 accuracy. All luck based. Too bad they can't stop crits entirely, crits DO really matter. OHKO moves have a 30% chance, and honestly, IF you hit it, you deserve the win, really. That's great if you manage to land it. Moody is also easy to counter if you run Malamar. Even if you don't want to run that, there aren't many powerful pokemon that run Moody. All I've seen are Smeargles with Moody. I think you can easily outkill Moody users with any super effective or neutral stab move, so what's the big deal? I can understand skill swap or something. What about running mega alakazam and trace his ability, to use it against him? Hey look, diversity, a reason to run a different mega.

Yes, but what if that isn't why you argument against it? The reasons they gave that would be deleted could be your arguments, I don't see why that isn't a good argument against your opinion. Really though, what are you supposed to say against any strategy? Yeah it sucks to encounter and counter against, but you can counter it. It's like that with many strategies, if you just keep banning all strategies, it's going to be more and more about just having to outpower or outstall the opponent. How can you do that correctly? Run the right pokemon. Then the top list will only be more and more used.
Triert wrote:What really if's me off about Smogon is how a moveset like Paraflinch Togekiss is perfectly legal but they hate double team.

Repeat, the Website that created a metagame attempting to make pokemon fair legalized a strategy that involves paralyzing and flinching an opponent to death using serene grace, thunder wave, and air slash.
Exactly. Paraflinch Togekiss is probably the most powerful single battle strategy right now. I think paraflinch Togekiss can easy take out mega khan as well and such.
LeafNinja wrote:^^^^^^Paraflinch Togekiss isn't that much of a problem. Its strategy falls flat against......every electric type with a base speed of 80+. Which includes, but is not limited to: Rotom and its appliance forms, Zapdos, Raikou, Raichu, Electivire, Manectric, Thundurus, Jolteon, Electrode, Galvantula.....and even the Pikaclones if you want to. Even without those, a mon who can shrug off an air slash (rock/steel-types) or outrun Togekiss (80+ base speed) and hit it with a super effective attack (rock/steel/ice/poison/electric-types) can get rid of it. It's no Skymin.

Megas like Khan and Lucario are borked because they have absurd movepool diversity which eliminates the chances you can counter them with one pokemon like...Skarmory. It's cooked by Fire Punch from Khan and Blaze Kick from Lucario. The same goes for Forretress.
Rotom-w is indeed run a lot. Mega Manectric, Thundurus and Galvantula are run now and then, but not really any others mentioned. Though sp atk invested non-stab thunderbolts could do a lot, but Togekiss is pretty buff actually. Though you could run, for example, an Aggron with stone edge, stone edge can miss and Aggron can still be crippled by paralysis and flinches. It's still more luck based than ANYTHING, really. You're counting on a, what, 60% flinch chance every single turn? Even if you are against Aggron, just switch out. You're not forced to stay in, get rid of the counter, and send it back in, just like you can with all the other banned pokes. I guess just like F.E.A.R., if you don't happen to counter it, you're in a bad position.

You are limited to 4 moves, some of those megas will only work out with a certain moveset. If Mega Khan runs fire punch, it means it won't run return, fake out, powerup punch or sucker punch. That makes it easier to find a good counter for it.


I want to add I can really get what you mean with it being hard to counter, but I just find it weak to ban a problem because you can't handle it. You know what? Go all run teams of counters against all these megas and scare them out of the game. I feel like that's the best way to deal with this problem. I get that mega blaziken, gengar and khan are hard to handle. I can understand you want to ban them. But banning swagger, prankster and all those clauses just eliminates strategies put to good use. Strategies that are fun. Strategies that are well thought. It destroys diversity, because now you have to run something different because people will hate you for using it. There is no flawless pokemon, there is no flawless strategy and there is no flawless team to counter everything. Just have fun, run what you want to run, and play the damn game without banning things because you don't like dealing with it. People don't like dealing with Togekiss as well, he can bring in a lot of shenanigans.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

Regarding luck, don't forget that, disregarding all the luck based elements that are highly visible, the damage formula itself includes some randomness that can make the difference between an attack KOing and leaving the opponent in the red. Still, I could see quite a few players disabling criticals and flinching if GameFreak introduced a custom rule feature with such options.

Given the prevalence of Sleep Clause(to the point that it even finds some official use if I am not mistaken), I am surprised similar clauses for paralysis and Frozen haven't come into play. Granted, Paralysis does give you a chance of moving, but it never heals naturally, which makes it even more debilitating in a long battle. I can only assume Frozen hasn't been restricted because its so rare(I have never played competitively, but I have been playing the games since Red and Blue and could probably count on one hand the number of times I have had one of my mons frozen).

The only real problem I see with Stealth Rock is that it is powerful enough to banish mons to lower tiers that could probably do just fine in Standard play otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised to see Charizard X join the ranks of banned Megas if not for Stealth Rock effectively halving its HP. And while rapid spin can dispel stealth rock, it does take up a move slot and is otherwise worthless.

Can't say I'm surprised Pikachu can be taken down by weak moves it resists. Afterall, the only thing keeping from being regulated to the Not Fully Evolve pile(which most tiers lists I've seen usually puts below even Never used) is that Light Ball gives if offensive strength heads and shoulders above Raichu. Light Ball Pikachu is a classic Glass Cannon, but any other Pikachu is practically cannon fodder.

I do kind of wonder how a "No hidden Abilities, No Mega Evolutions" rule set would play out with the gen 6 games. In particular, I wonder if Blaziken would hold on to uber status under such rules.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:I can only assume Frozen hasn't been restricted because its so rare(I have never played competitively, but I have been playing the games since Red and Blue and could probably count on one hand the number of times I have had one of my mons frozen).
Frozen is pretty rare, because, as most people know but some don't realize, it doesn't have an attack that guarantees the effect, or an attack that's made for freezing. You got toxic, poison gas, poison poweder and toxic spikes that are made purely for poisoning, spore, dark void, sleeping powder, yawn, sing, hypnosis, lovely kiss and grass whistle purely made for sleeping, attract for attraction, confusion ray, swagger, sweet kiss and teeter dance for confusion, glare, thunder wave and stun spore for paralysis and will-o-wisp for burning purposes. Some have a 100% accuracy, some statuses have moves that afflict status conditions at a 100% chance, but freezing doesn't have more than a 30% chance which is through secret power in a specific location. Usage of some moves thaw you instantly as well.
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:The only real problem I see with Stealth Rock is that it is powerful enough to banish mons to lower tiers that could probably do just fine in Standard play otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised to see Charizard X join the ranks of banned Megas if not for Stealth Rock effectively halving its HP. And while rapid spin can dispel stealth rock, it does take up a move slot and is otherwise worthless.
You mean Charizard Y, right? Charizard X is the dragon one, and not used a lot because you have the choice between a physical Charizard that's weak to earthquake now or a special Charizard with Drought that's still flying.
And yeah, I believe rapid spin is something you'd rather not run. Sure it gets rid of hazards, but it does even less damage than aerial ace and such, I believe. It probably does.
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:I do kind of wonder how a "No hidden Abilities, No Mega Evolutions" rule set would play out with the gen 6 games. In particular, I wonder if Blaziken would hold on to uber status under such rules.
I'm pretty sure it will. It sure isn't the only reason why Blaziken is strong, but it sure is what helped Smogon to decide to do so. (I just double checked to see if speed boost was available in gen 5 because it was already banned back then apparently, and it does) You could deny it does, but I doubt Blaziken is stronger than the next starter pokemon without such an abusable ability.
Though a no HA rule is not really a thing I'd like to see in a metagame rulebook, but rather in a battle mode. Much like the WT battle, in which you have to WT 6 pokes and have to fight with the ones you get without changing them. You could say OU competitive is a battle mode as well, and so is uber, but OU is pretty much 95% of all battles, so it's not really a 'battle mode' anymore, but rather standard. Even if there would be no HA allowed, some pokemon won't suffer from it, like Metagross getting light metal. Who would run a grass knot or low kick on a Metagross?
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Triert »

Sure, Paraflinch Togekiss is countered by such a thing.

But you're not seriously going to have a pokemon that gets countered like that without having a backup counter are you? Excadrill is known as a great Togekiss Partner because it can check it's counters.

Then you need a good Excadrill counter, then whatever counters excadrill, it's a game of speed chess to try and outmaneuver each other. If it's in singles? Expect a switch fest of grand proportions.

But people like us have always complained about the faults in Smogons system, how much they're willing to let slide, how much they're willing to ignore. Do people just continue to go to smogon because it's just so much easier to know how to make their pokemon the best? I think thats bull crap, the only thing that's made them "better pokemon" is the fact that they've had to adapt to the system introduced by smogon itself. One that they're stubborn to try and fix, or openly address the faults in their own system.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

Going to confess ignorance here, but I thought ditching the Flying type for Dragon made Charizard X the prefer version of Mega Charizard? Or losing an immunity to ground type and gaining weakness to ground and dragon type seems like a decent trade-off to lose nearly all of its original weaknesses and have its rock weakness reduced to 2x.

If I am not mistaken, Rapid Spin has a base power of 20, which if I am not mistaken, makes it the weakest single hit attack in the game. Most of the never hit moves have a base power of 60, and most of the "old reliables", the attack moves that are strong, but not so strong that they need built-in drawbacks to avoid being broken are in the 90-100 base power range.

Also, I too wouldn't agree with "No hidden abilities, No Megas" for standard, but it would be nice to see a variety of battle modes available as part of the standard multiplayer in the games. Perhaps modernize versions of the Stdium Cups from the stadium games would help diversify things and encourage more players to play multiple tiers instead of sticking to OU.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Triert »

Rapid Spin is what I call a "Smogon Move" that was treasured for the sole purpose of removing entry hazards before generation 6. It's use didn't come from being powerful, it came from fulfilling a niche.

I for one loved the idea of inverse battles, even if it does make normal types god emperors.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:Going to confess ignorance here, but I thought ditching the Flying type for Dragon made Charizard X the prefer version of Mega Charizard? Or losing an immunity to ground type and gaining weakness to ground and dragon type seems like a decent trade-off to lose nearly all of its original weaknesses and have its rock weakness reduced to 2x.
I think that was before experiencing the power of Charizard Y. It's basically a Charizard with instant sunlight bringing his heat wave/flamethrower to 1.5x the strength and reduces water moves used on it by 1.5x, making it neutral. Charizard X is also neutral for water now though, gets an improved attack ability, but I believe the main reason is that people think he looks much cooler, and they feel like it's finally justified that Charizard becomes a dragon type, but being able to suddenly get hit by earthquake is QUITE inconvenient.
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:If I am not mistaken, Rapid Spin has a base power of 20, which if I am not mistaken, makes it the weakest single hit attack in the game. Most of the never hit moves have a base power of 60, and most of the "old reliables", the attack moves that are strong, but not so strong that they need built-in drawbacks to avoid being broken are in the 90-100 base power range.
It might just be the weakest, but I guess you could also always run Defog, which might, if I'm not mistaking, have other uses as well. I do believe it's previous gen exclusive though, so it requires pokebank. I might be entirely wrong though, I haven't competitively used it yet.
Never miss moves indeed have 60, which can be taken advantage of with Technician, since it increases attacks by 1.5x strength if their base power is 60 or lower, making it 90. This would make aerial ace superior to drill peck (though this is only good news for Scyther, since he's the only flying pokemon with technician that gets a stab from it).


@ Triert: I think we haven't agreed on something as much as we have now.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Triert »

@ Tobi: Truly, pokemon has an amazing ability of bringing people closer together.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

*Consults Bulbapedia on Rapid Spin and Defog.*

I had no idea Defog could dispel entry hazards. It also breaks shields and dispels sticky web among other things. Rapid Spin dispels Entry Hazards and breaks the user out of confinement moves(most of which see little use due to weak power as far as I know). This argueably makes Defog the better move on average.

Unfortunately, only 2 evolution lines learn Defog Naturally, and it's only appearance in a TM is as HM05 in DPPt. Since you can't transfer mons with HM moves, to get a legit Defogger in XY, you would have to teach the move in DPPt, trade to HGSS, Transfer to BW/B2W2, and than Bank it to XY. And considering how much easier it is to breed Genetically Perfect Mons in G6, it would probably have inferior stats. Still, it would probably throw off anyone using Dual Screens, Entry Hazards, or Double Team just because of the move's relative obscurity.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

I had no idea either, until I saw someone run a Mega Scizor with it.

Rapid spin could also be useful if infestation is used (I believe it's called). People run it on Shuckle to outstall opponents. I'm not sure if that is affected though.

I don't know, since Defog is not considered an HM move anymore in XY, it might just be able to get passed on. *consults serebii*
Yeah it is able to pass on by breeding. This guy I mentioned must have really taken his Scizor from Gen 4, since Scyther and Scizor have no breeding matches. Neither does Drifblim. Shiftry, however, can learn it if a Smeargle sketched the move from a different Pokémon. All others in the list seem to be in the flying egg group, meaning they can breed it.
For Rapid spin, I'm honestly surprised by how many can actually learn it. All I thought off were Blastoise and Forretress.

But yeah having Defog can really throw people off, specially if you have it on any of these pokemon.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

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No one thinks of Donphan as a good rapid spinner :c
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Just checked, and Donphan seems like a great Pokémon. If I were you I would run a Donphan and show people what Donphan can do. Heck, if I were ME I would do it as well... Yeah, I might run Donphan :o
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Aruesso »

itt game freak ruins smogon and it's really funny
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

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Tobi wrote:Just checked, and Donphan seems like a great Pokémon. If I were you I would run a Donphan and show people what Donphan can do. Heck, if I were ME I would do it as well... Yeah, I might run Donphan :o
Donphan is the OG rapid spinner Gen 2 edition :D :3
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

So apparently Smogon doesn't really take lightly with people disagreeing with their opinions (as in, part of the community). Some guy expressed his opinions on youtube over what he thought about Smogons bans and such, and they pasted his face on dead bodies and such and gave dead threats. They basically bullied him into apologizing and deleting some of his videos because he wanted it to end and just felt like he had to be the bigger man.

You know, this is kind of sad, because, for some people, THIS is the reason they follow Smogon's rules. This could happen to you if you're against Smogon and their rules, and go use stuff they hate.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Triert »

Is this the forum goers or the Smogon admins themselves?

Also, I'm not surprised either would have such a sense of superiority. Smogon is dangerously close to Smug.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Like I said, the community, not the staff. Not all of the community is like that and all, but this is just... Sick. It's a children's game ffs, and they are sending death threats...
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Tobi wrote: You know, this is kind of sad, because, for some people, THIS is the reason they follow Smogon's rules. This could happen to you if you're against Smogon and their rules, and go use stuff they hate.
Not really. Smogon is highly used because it was the first tiering system, and most people use it because it allows for a more balanced experience. However, there are people that religiously abide by everything somgon says as law. There are people like that everywhere. There are also people that are kinda "eh" about it. The extremists are just louder. And then there are the people that don't agree with it and don't give a ****.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Notice how I said 'some'. There are plenty of people who only follow these rules to fit in with what the majority does.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

Never underestimate the power of peer pressure, especially when those applying the pressure have no scruples about resulting to harassment or outright bullying of those who don't want to conform. It takes a strong will to express and live by a minority opinion in the face of overwhelming numbers, and an even stronger will to continue doing so when having said minority opinion makes you the target of the most unreasonable portion of those who share the majority opinion. This is just as true when dealing with "stop having fun" players for games with popular online multiplayer as it is when dealing with the bigots regarding real-life social issues.

@Tobi: Do the Smogon staff at least do a halfway decent job of keeping the harassment off Smogon itself?

Still, it kind of sucks that Smogon has such a monopoly on Competitive battling to the point that its almost impossible to do your own thing without being limited to real-world friends to play with.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

^You can do wifi battles on the official pokemon latter
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