Smogon discussion (metagame)

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Do you like Smogon's metagame? (read post first, please)

Yes
2
17%
No
5
42%
I don't, but I do like their builds.
5
42%
 
Total votes: 12

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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:This is just as true when dealing with "stop having fun" players for games with popular online multiplayer as it is when dealing with the bigots regarding real-life social issues.
Just like the 'serious' players of SSBB, the no items 3 stock fox only final destination ones.
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:@Tobi: Do the Smogon staff at least do a halfway decent job of keeping the harassment off Smogon itself?
I don't think so, honestly, I think they're just sitting around, picking their nose.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Bumping this because Smogon officially banned Swagger.

Thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lo ... k.3502265/

I myself think this is ridiculous. It didn't even get voted out by a huge part of the community, rather just a certain group of people.

77 people to be exact.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Triert »

Swag killed Smogon

My day is here
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

I'm gonna bring this back because:

Aegislash is banned.

What a load of bullcrap.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Ommy »

I don't even see a reason why Aegislash should be banned

Sure it's strong and has a great ability but it can easily be killed and defended against. I never had a problem with one before and the one I have isn't even that good.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Aegislash being banned is just silly and unnecessary. However, that does open up some more OU spots, since aegislash was the reason that many pokemon were in UU. And I DON'T HAVE TO RUN A FIRE TYPE IN MY TEAM ANYMORE HYPEHYPEHYPEHYPEHPYEHYPEHYPEHYPE
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

What about Scizor, Ferrothorn (a fighting type will do though), Forretress or Escavalier? What about using a ghost type or a dark type move? Many ghost pokemon run a will-o-wisp, which destroys almost every Aegislash.

Aegislash was most likely banned because he's technical. So technical that he can get up to +6 if he outpredicts you.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Mamkute »

Tobi wrote:Bumping this because Smogon officially banned Smogon.
That sounds weird.

Anyway, I have a mixed opinion on structured metagames in general. I know tournaments are a thing that people will always want to exist, and are very fun for many people, however, the application of their standards on any where else but their tournaments, or between users that believe in their guidelines heavily (which I don't believe people should) is not okay.
I found some very funny quotes when looking over their banning of swagger:

"while it's not broken, it's unhealthy and contributes to almost nothing but un-competitive-ness."

"I think Klefki is the real issue here. Klefki resists Extreme Speed and Brave Bird"

"the "diversity' it creates isn't the good kind."

"swagplay draws out games / takes the competitive fun out of the game"

These were compiled from four posts in, and I could go on to find humorous claims. Banning a strategy seems absurd- if people come up with a strategy, removal of that seems unfair. If a non-competitive strategy wins, I would say that is pretty competitive, and people are making it work pretty well for themselves.

And at least Smash Bros metagame can't really ban a strategy, and even if it encourages people to play Fox, and characters on any tier can play together.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Mamkute wrote:
Tobi wrote:Bumping this because Smogon officially banned Swagger.
That sounds weird.
No idea what you mean. *shifty eyes*

Swagger is a coin toss though. 50% chance of doing insane damage, 50% chance of doing insane damage to yourself.
If you use a special attacker, damaging yourself will only be increased, but shouldn't do a lot. Except when you, like, use Mewtwo or something. But that's ubers and pretty much where Swagger is banned to.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Tobi wrote:What about Scizor, Ferrothorn (a fighting type will do though), Forretress or Escavalier? What about using a ghost type or a dark type move? Many ghost pokemon run a will-o-wisp, which destroys almost every Aegislash.

Aegislash was most likely banned because he's technical. So technical that he can get up to +6 if he outpredicts you.
None of those pokemon are ever a problem for me. Azumarill belly drum aqua jet op.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Rajikaru »

Came in here to break the idea that Smogon is evil and only bans bad things and the staff never does anything.

Firstly, Swagger was banned because it's unhealthy to the meta-game: a widely available move that no Pokemon is immune to bar Own Tempo Pokemon, which forces the match from a skill-based endeavor to a luck-based guessing game of "Do I stay in, try and deal big damage, and possibly KO one of my pokemon in the process, or do I switch out, wasting a turn and opening me up for the same situation?" that's always lose/lose. It doesn't help that multiple new ways to use Swagger were introduced (3 Prankster users, one of which being Klefki who is only x2 weak to Ground attacks, as well as buffs to other already good Swagger exploiters). While you could argue that there are other moves that do the same thing, the only reasoning I can give is that they're very spare otherwise (DynamicPunch being only run by two pokemon, which are both low-tier anyways so it's a gimmick at the most, Confuse Ray being inaccurate and uncommon as well).

Secondly, every problem has been banned for a reason, and Aegislash is probably one of the most discussed Suspects ever. Both sides, pro-ban and otherwise, gave valid points, but the consensus was that Aegislash is too viable: Possessing incredibly high Defense stats when needed, as well as incredibly high Offense stats, having access to multiple good moves, one of which (Sacred Sword) completely destroys most that can counter it (Dark-types, bar Mandibuzz), and being the only pokemon where having a low speed stat is more beneficial than just in Trick Room situations (with one of the lowest speeds in the metagame, and Stance Change only activating when Aegislash performs a move, Aegislash basically had sky-high defensive stats to absorb hits, then switched to sky-high offensive stats). Bear in mind that Aegislash always starts in Shield Stance, and can switch at any time thanks to King's Shield. It also has incredibly great coverage (Ghost+Steel is not countered by any one Pokemon except for Mandibuzz). Finally, thanks to its sky-high offense stats, both physical and special, Will-O-Wisp is a gamble; either you just severely crippled Aegislash, or wasted a turn to deal a small amount of damage every turn on a Pokemon that can easily make use of every turn it has). Mandibuzz is the closest thing to a counter to Aegislash, and even then it's only a check as both Sub-Toxic and Head Smash can severely cripple it. To sum it up, Aegislash could literally do anything, and do it well. Physical sweeper, revenge killer, Special sweeper, mixed sweeper, stall (Sub+Toxic), all done easily thanks to how good Aegislash is.

Also, "I don't have a problem dealing with it" is never an argument, let alone a good one. Congratulations, I could easily make a team that is solely meant to counter Aegislash or Swagger or Baton Pass in every way, that doesn't mean I can use that to argue the strategy isn't overpowered, there are these things that are called "teams that don't run Aegislash, Swagger, or Baton Pass".


Lastly, Smogon does in fact moderate; in fact, the Aegislash Suspect thread would literally be twice as long with all of the pointless arguing that was deleted by the mods the second they showed up. The amount of **** arguing I saw when I was in the suspect thread (you might see some of my posts, unfortunately my current pc situation means I can't even battle so I am currently not bothering with posting) could fill at least half of CI, arguing such small things as "If Aegislash is banned, then there might be other big problems in the future like Mega Medicham!" (also not a good argument, as keeping one overpowered thing just to keep other overpowered things at bay is just plain stupid).

And just to point out: contrary to seemingly popular belief, Smogon is aiming to create a nice competitive atmosphere where games are determined by pure skill while still being fun, and that is why Suspects are held in the first place; also why Ubers is a banlist first, competitive tier second. Ever play a few Friendlies on Battle Spot? Maybe the April Friendlies like myself? Notice the absurd amount of Xerneas/Mega Mewtwo/Zygarde teams? I certainly did.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Nova! wrote:Firstly, Swagger was banned because it's unhealthy to the meta-game: a widely available move that no Pokemon is immune to bar Own Tempo Pokemon, which forces the match from a skill-based endeavor to a luck-based guessing game of "Do I stay in, try and deal big damage, and possibly KO one of my pokemon in the process, or do I switch out, wasting a turn and opening me up for the same situation?" that's always lose/lose.
A luck based guessing game? Really? That's exactly what Pokemon is? A crit or a miss can be fatal, why would you get rid of even more luck based factors? I guess we should ban critical hits while at it.
Have you ever even faced a Swagger team? It really doesn't do as much damage as people make it out to be.
Nova! wrote:CIt doesn't help that multiple new ways to use Swagger were introduced (3 Prankster users, one of which being Klefki who is only x2 weak to Ground attacks, as well as buffs to other already good Swagger exploiters). While you could argue that there are other moves that do the same thing, the only reasoning I can give is that they're very spare otherwise (DynamicPunch being only run by two pokemon, which are both low-tier anyways so it's a gimmick at the most, Confuse Ray being inaccurate and uncommon as well).
Not to be a smartass, but:
1. Klefki is also weak to fire x2
2. Dynamicpunch has a base-power of 100, which is quite a lot, can be abused by no guard pokemon like Golurk and Machamp and has a 100% chance of confusion. How is that not broken?? Heck you can even skill swap no guard to another pokemon if you think the users are weak anyway.
3. Confuse ray has an accuracy of 100% and I have seen it been used quite common. Sableye, for example. Not everyone wants to risk the Swagger, since Swagger can also wreck YOUR team.
Nova! wrote:Aegislash is too viable: Possessing incredibly high Defense stats when needed, as well as incredibly high Offense stats, having access to multiple good moves, one of which (Sacred Sword) completely destroys most that can counter it (Dark-types, bar Mandibuzz), and being the only pokemon where having a low speed stat is more beneficial than just in Trick Room situations (with one of the lowest speeds in the metagame, and Stance Change only activating when Aegislash performs a move, Aegislash basically had sky-high defensive stats to absorb hits, then switched to sky-high offensive stats). Bear in mind that Aegislash always starts in Shield Stance, and can switch at any time thanks to King's Shield. It also has incredibly great coverage (Ghost+Steel is not countered by any one Pokemon except for Mandibuzz). Finally, thanks to its sky-high offense stats, both physical and special, Will-O-Wisp is a gamble; either you just severely crippled Aegislash, or wasted a turn to deal a small amount of damage every turn on a Pokemon that can easily make use of every turn it has). Mandibuzz is the closest thing to a counter to Aegislash, and even then it's only a check as both Sub-Toxic and Head Smash can severely cripple it. To sum it up, Aegislash could literally do anything, and do it well. Physical sweeper, revenge killer, Special sweeper, mixed sweeper, stall (Sub+Toxic), all done easily thanks to how good Aegislash is.
1. The stats really depend on how you play Aegislash though. The trick is to find out what moveset the opponent has.
2. Fire types though?
3. I'd say a pokemon that relies on constantly using protect (or a form of it) is pretty crippled when getting burned or poisoned. Pretty much any status move is a huge disadvantage for Aegislash. Burn and poison make it so that his King's shield turns will damage him regardless. You can even status him through his 'protect'! Paralyze makes it so that there will be turns he can't get into king's shield, which can decide whether Aegislash lives or not.

Seriously any special attacker that has a ghost move, fire move, dark move or possible a status move can do a good number on Aegislash. Aegislash is build to be technical, and nothing else. If you can't outpredict it, you're ****ed. If you can, it's off the field before you know it.

Not even getting on sub-toxic Aegislash, because it seems you find that stating something as uncommon is enough of an argument.
Nova! wrote:Also, "I don't have a problem dealing with it" is never an argument, let alone a good one. Congratulations, I could easily make a team that is solely meant to counter Aegislash or Swagger or Baton Pass in every way, that doesn't mean I can use that to argue the strategy isn't overpowered, there are these things that are called "teams that don't run Aegislash, Swagger, or Baton Pass".
Personally, I rarely go with the same team everytime. The only pokemon I've constantly had trouble dealing with is Charizard Y in doubles. That's it. Aegislash has never been a problem. I even managed to destroy Midnite's Aegislash with my Doublade.
Nova! wrote:"If Aegislash is banned, then there might be other big problems in the future like Mega Medicham!" (also not a good argument, as keeping one overpowered thing just to keep other overpowered things at bay is just plain stupid)
If you think about it, it CAN cause a chain reaction though. I probably mentioned it before. Right now, the strongest Mega is potentially Mega Mawile. Everyone uses Mega Mawile now because it's the next strongest pokemon in line. Realistically, in a few years, the entirety of OU is banned to ubers this way. If Aegislash is uncommon thanks to the ban, it means Mega Medicham can come out and shine. (which, I've heard, is a great counter for Rotom-W)
Nova! wrote:And just to point out: contrary to seemingly popular belief, Smogon is aiming to create a nice competitive atmosphere where games are determined by pure skill while still being fun, and that is why Suspects are held in the first place; also why Ubers is a banlist first, competitive tier second. Ever play a few Friendlies on Battle Spot? Maybe the April Friendlies like myself? Notice the absurd amount of Xerneas/Mega Mewtwo/Zygarde teams? I certainly did.
I bet that was their goal, but they went too far, in my opinion.
I play a lot of free battles, and I've indeed seen a lot of Xerneas, because Power Herb Xerneas is a thing. Mega Mewtwo, whichever version you got, are now the strongest sweepers, so of course you see them a lot. (though most Mega Mewtwo X's are special...??) Zygarde, surprisingly much, while Zygarde is really bad.
Have you seen the current tournament though, it's doubles now, so there's a whole bunch of Darkrai.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Most Mewtwo X's are special because mewtwo doesn't have a good physical movepool.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

I beg to differ.

Psycho cut
Brick break/Power-up punch
Poison jab
Rock slide/Stone edge/Aerial ace/Earthquake

I'd say those are some decent moves. You can also go for a more bulky set with Barrier/Bulk up, Recover, Amnesia, etc... Why would you even run X over Y if you want to go for a special attacker? A slightly more balanced bulk?
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Let me rephrase my statement then. Its physical moves aren't as good as its special moves.

Psystrike
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Blizzard
Psychic
Thunder/Thunderbolt
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Tobi wrote:Why would you even run X over Y if you want to go for a special attacker? A slightly more balanced bulk?
Besides not having the the Y mega stone. Running Charizard X with special attacks is no excuse to use it over Charizard Y either. Mewtwo X probably works better as special attacker than Charizard X compared to their Y counterparts, but still.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Rajikaru »

Tobi wrote: A luck based guessing game? Really? That's exactly what Pokemon is? A crit or a miss can be fatal, why would you get rid of even more luck based factors? I guess we should ban critical hits while at it.
Have you ever even faced a Swagger team? It really doesn't do as much damage as people make it out to be.
Except crits are incredibly rare RNGs and would probably be banned if they were more prevalent too. Why are you comparing something that has a 1 out of 2 chance of wasting a turn doing damage to yourself to a 1/16 chance small boost to a move's damage? Also, misses are only factors on moves that have lower than 100% accuracy, not to mention Minimize being banned for exactly the same reason: easily exploitable, and lead to luck-based RNGs.
Tobi wrote: 2. Dynamicpunch has a base-power of 100, which is quite a lot, can be abused by no guard pokemon like Golurk and Machamp and has a 100% chance of confusion. How is that not broken?? Heck you can even skill swap no guard to another pokemon if you think the users are weak anyway.
3. Confuse ray has an accuracy of 100% and I have seen it been used quite common. Sableye, for example. Not everyone wants to risk the Swagger, since Swagger can also wreck YOUR team.

Confuse Ray is also only viable on Sableye, as every other Pokemon that has access to it and is actually an OU factor (namely Gardevoir) has something better to run.

Because A. it has a 50% hit rate, that means one out of two times it will miss (may not seem like a lot, but if you've ever used Focus Blast or Hydro Pump, you will know why that can seriously **** you over), and B. As we both said, it's only actually viable on Golurk and Machamp, two incredibly weak pokemon, neither of which are actually viable enough to even be in BL (the section between OU and UU). Yeah, you can run Machamp if you want a slow Fighting type that can guarantee confusion, but there's also Conkeldurr who actually can take more than a hit.

Also lol skill swap
Tobi wrote: 1. The stats really depend on how you play Aegislash though. The trick is to find out what moveset the opponent has.
2. Fire types though?
3. I'd say a pokemon that relies on constantly using protect (or a form of it) is pretty crippled when getting burned or poisoned. Pretty much any status move is a huge disadvantage for Aegislash. Burn and poison make it so that his King's shield turns will damage him regardless. You can even status him through his 'protect'! Paralyze makes it so that there will be turns he can't get into king's shield, which can decide whether Aegislash lives or not.

Seriously any special attacker that has a ghost move, fire move, dark move or possible a status move can do a good number on Aegislash. Aegislash is build to be technical, and nothing else. If you can't outpredict it, you're ****ed. If you can, it's off the field before you know it.
1. No, the stats don't. Aegislash will always have some of the highest stats, defense-wise or offense-wise, in OU. That "trick" also involves sacrificing a teammate to figure out if Aegislash is running a certain set. Say you switch in Skarmory expecting a physical sweeper, Guess what? Shadow Ball takes care of that problem, and you basically gave up a Pokemon to figure that out. Maybe you switch in Bisharp? Oop, obvious predict, Bisharp loses to Sacred Sword.

2. Alright, I can use the same logic for Mega-Kangaskhan. Why should it be banned when Fighting exists? I mean come on Smogon, it's so obvious. I mean, Fighting types are so common!

3. Most Aegislash run leftovers, negating will-o-wisp. Also steel = immune to poison. Name one pokemon that is crippled by running Protect. When you do that, you can then explain to me why pokemon such as Umbreon, Vaporeon, Chesnaught, and the like are all high-tier Pokemon in OU even with Protect or variations thereof
?
Also no they can't bring Aegislash down. Aegislash can survive all but two specific attacks (and the sets run are not the usual sets) at full health in Defensive stance, even STAB SE moves. No revenge killing for you.

Tobi wrote:Not even getting on sub-toxic Aegislash, because it seems you find that stating something as uncommon is enough of an argument.
Except Sub-Toxic was literally the most used Aegislash set in the meta before Suspect.

Tobi wrote:Personally, I rarely go with the same team everytime. The only pokemon I've constantly had trouble dealing with is Charizard Y in doubles. That's it. Aegislash has never been a problem. I even managed to destroy Midnite's Aegislash with my Doublade.
Congratulations.
Tobi wrote: I bet that was their goal, but they went too far, in my opinion.
Hardly. The OU metagame is at its best currently, and if you think otherwise, you obviously weren't around for Gen V aka Genesect + Weather Wars. There are multiple new viable pokemon in OU, thanks to the new Mega Evos and Pokes introduced this Generation.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Nova! wrote:Except crits are incredibly rare RNGs and would probably be banned if they were more prevalent too. Why are you comparing something that has a 1 out of 2 chance of wasting a turn doing damage to yourself to a 1/16 chance small boost to a move's damage? Also, misses are only factors on moves that have lower than 100% accuracy, not to mention Minimize being banned for exactly the same reason: easily exploitable, and lead to luck-based RNGs.
I'm comparing it because crits can make you win or lose the game just as much as confusion can, just like accuracy can and just like pretty much everything else can. I managed to 4-0 Midnite, for example, in the tournament only because I took a guess and tried to get the burn on his Bronzong with Scald just so I could hex my way through his calm minds. Got it first turn, and that really meant a lot. And don't let me go back on minimize, I seriously once put up a whole ****ing list of ways to avoid it. The reason minimize is banned is because people are whining about not running a counter for it, which means minimize is only frowned upon because people didn't want to run anything against it because it's banned anyway. Like people care.
Nova! wrote:Confuse Ray is also only viable on Sableye, as every other Pokemon that has access to it and is actually an OU factor (namely Gardevoir) has something better to run.
Sableye is still pretty common though. I'm assuming you mean a different move for Gardevoir in general because confuse ray is pretty much the best confusion move, unless you want to swagger or get to use dynamic punch with no guard.
Nova! wrote:Because A. it has a 50% hit rate, that means one out of two times it will miss (may not seem like a lot, but if you've ever used Focus Blast or Hydro Pump, you will know why that can seriously **** you over), and B. As we both said, it's only actually viable on Golurk and Machamp, two incredibly weak pokemon, neither of which are actually viable enough to even be in BL (the section between OU and UU). Yeah, you can run Machamp if you want a slow Fighting type that can guarantee confusion, but there's also Conkeldurr who actually can take more than a hit.

Also lol skill swap
Yeah of course you'd only use it on those two, and I wouldn't say they are incredibly weak, but if you're going to compare it with no-skill Talonflame, then yeah.

Hm yeah talking about doubles of course, I still prefer doubles over singles. Better strategies come from it.
Nova! wrote:1. No, the stats don't. Aegislash will always have some of the highest stats, defense-wise or offense-wise, in OU. That "trick" also involves sacrificing a teammate to figure out if Aegislash is running a certain set. Say you switch in Skarmory expecting a physical sweeper, Guess what? Shadow Ball takes care of that problem, and you basically gave up a Pokemon to figure that out. Maybe you switch in Bisharp? Oop, obvious predict, Bisharp loses to Sacred Sword.

2. Alright, I can use the same logic for Mega-Kangaskhan. Why should it be banned when Fighting exists? I mean come on Smogon, it's so obvious. I mean, Fighting types are so common!

3. Most Aegislash run leftovers, negating will-o-wisp. Also steel = immune to poison. Name one pokemon that is crippled by running Protect. When you do that, you can then explain to me why pokemon such as Umbreon, Vaporeon, Chesnaught, and the like are all high-tier Pokemon in OU even with Protect or variations thereof
?
Also no they can't bring Aegislash down. Aegislash can survive all but two specific attacks (and the sets run are not the usual sets) at full health in Defensive stance, even STAB SE moves. No revenge killing for you.
1. Yes the stats do, it depends on how the person play Aegislash. Shadow sneak means that if you can live it, you can kill it. Seriously though, another way to counter Aegislash would be taunt. That way, he can't set up or go into king's shield. Apparently taunt is super useless and people don't want to run it for things like, idk, SETUPS, WISHPROTECTS, STATUS INFLICTIONS, ETC. Seriously, everyone overlooks taunt.

2. Fighting is not why I think Mega-khan should be banned though. It does make sucker punch more useless. A defensive ghost pokemon that can setup totally outplays Mega-khan. There's a lot that will outplay Mega-khan, but people can't do but whine.

3. Let's see. Moonlight, Wish, Leech Seed. I namely said Protect stallers will be shut down by toxic or will-o-wisp because they take damage every turn, and will after using Protect as well. Paralyzing will give you a 75% chance (I believe? I keep forgetting) to use Protect. Confusion will give you a 50% chance.

I recall one-shotting Aegislashes, but whatever. 2-hit KO will do.
Nova! wrote:Except Sub-Toxic was literally the most used Aegislash set in the meta before Suspect.
I haven't heard of it before, let alone encountered it.
Nova! wrote:Congratulations.
If that's seriously all you have to say about it, I'm just gonna assume you're salty over Aegislashes outpredicting your butt off.
Nova! wrote:Hardly. The OU metagame is at its best currently, and if you think otherwise, you obviously weren't around for Gen V aka Genesect + Weather Wars. There are multiple new viable pokemon in OU, thanks to the new Mega Evos and Pokes introduced this Generation.
Didn't they unban Genesect, then ban it again because everyone started using Genesect like crazy?

I must have missed something, did Smogon ban weather now??
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

I don't know that much about competitive battling, but shouldn't singles, doubles, triples, and rotations logically have distinct tier lists because of how each battle mode fundamentally alters proper strategy and tactics?

Also, with Smogon's general view that luck-based concepts should be banned instead of encouraging people to think of ways to outplay the RNG, I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason they haven't banned criticals or even the randomized part of the damage formula is beacuse banning the former would require calling a do over everytime a crit occurs when playing in the actual games, and the latter would be impossible outside of hacking the game or using simulators that are inaccurate by design. Though on that note, what is Smogon's ruling of strategies that boost the critical hit rate?

Then again, I'd say the biggest problem with Smogon is that those who subscribe to a less restictive ruleset often find themselves being harrassed by Elitists who subscribe to Smogon's rules. At one extreme you have the noobish kids who's strategy is limited to "legends strong" and at the opposite extreme you have the "no fun allowed, Tournament Elitists" and the people in the middle don't really have a place where they can test their strategies outside of their closest friends.

I do kind of wonder how a metagame with so-called "luck" mechanics unrestricted would go. I'm sure allowing evasion buffs or accuracy nerfs would change the metagame, but I could see it going in directions other than over reliance on perfect accuracy moves or a snore fest where most attacks miss. As many strategies as people have mentioned being banned or at least frowned upon, I wonder how many strategies have not been developed because experimentation against the banned strategies was discouraged.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Doubles, Triples, and Rotation battles don't have a smogon tier list. Most double/triple battles are VGC.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

I prefer doubles over singles anyway because singles is just a switchfest instead of actual battling with fun strategies.
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:Also, with Smogon's general view that luck-based concepts should be banned instead of encouraging people to think of ways to outplay the RNG, I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason they haven't banned criticals or even the randomized part of the damage formula is beacuse banning the former would require calling a do over everytime a crit occurs when playing in the actual games, and the latter would be impossible outside of hacking the game or using simulators that are inaccurate by design. Though on that note, what is Smogon's ruling of strategies that boost the critical hit rate?
I barely hear Smogon speak of critical hits. They simply can't stop critical hits, otherwise I bet they'd have banned it already, so competitive play would purely be competitive.
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:I do kind of wonder how a metagame with so-called "luck" mechanics unrestricted would go. I'm sure allowing evasion buffs or accuracy nerfs would change the metagame, but I could see it going in directions other than over reliance on perfect accuracy moves or a snore fest where most attacks miss. As many strategies as people have mentioned being banned or at least frowned upon, I wonder how many strategies have not been developed because experimentation against the banned strategies was discouraged.
That's my point, really. If nothing was banned, evasion would either be seen as a cheap strategy (because paraflinching isn't a cheap strategy at all used by pretty much every smogon user) or a metagame that people run teams against. A metagame should develop by people, not by rules most people won't listen to. If everyone would collectively run a counter against Talonflame, most people will stop running Talonflame.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by EvilPinkamina »

People that wanted to use talonflame would still use talonflame, they would just run a counter to the common counter.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

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Tobi wrote: I'm comparing it because crits can make you win or lose the game just as much as confusion can, just like accuracy can and just like pretty much everything else can. I managed to 4-0 Midnite, for example, in the tournament only because I took a guess and tried to get the burn on his Bronzong with Scald just so I could hex my way through his calm minds. Got it first turn, and that really meant a lot. And don't let me go back on minimize, I seriously once put up a whole ****ing list of ways to avoid it. The reason minimize is banned is because people are whining about not running a counter for it, which means minimize is only frowned upon because people didn't want to run anything against it because it's banned anyway. Like people care.
No crits can't. Also, just because you put up a "whole ****** list of ways" doesn't mean it's not unfair. Everything has a whole ****** list of ways to avoid them, but usually that involves having to run ****** sets or moves that could be better spent running good moves/sets. I'm not going to run Earthquake on Pinsir just to deal with Aegislash (literally the only reason Earthquake is used on Pinsir).
Tobi wrote:Sableye is still pretty common though. I'm assuming you mean a different move for Gardevoir in general because confuse ray is pretty much the best confusion move, unless you want to swagger or get to use dynamic punch with no guard.
...But who actually wants to run Confuse Ray? Swagger had the benefit of being on literally just about every Pokemon, since it's a TM. Without Swagger confusion is a worthless status to run when Pokemon such as Sableye are better off running Will-O-Wisp.

Tobi wrote:Yeah of course you'd only use it on those two, and I wouldn't say they are incredibly weak, but if you're going to compare it with no-skill Talonflame, then yeah.
See, that's where you lose all credibility with your argument.

Tobi wrote:1. Yes the stats do, it depends on how the person play Aegislash. Shadow sneak means that if you can live it, you can kill it. Seriously though, another way to counter Aegislash would be taunt. That way, he can't set up or go into king's shield. Apparently taunt is super useless and people don't want to run it for things like, idk, SETUPS, WISHPROTECTS, STATUS INFLICTIONS, ETC. Seriously, everyone overlooks taunt.
No, they don't. The only problem is TAUNT USERS ARE ESTABLISHED IN THE META-GAME ALREADY MEANING IT'S COMPLETE OBVIOUS YOU'RE GOING TO USE TAUNT TO COUNTER AEGISLASH. Guess what, you use Taunt? Aegislash will just return with an attack then switch out. Congratulations, you wasted a turn, maybe two if you then burn Aegislash and it's running special.[/quote]
Tobi wrote:2. Fighting is not why I think Mega-khan should be banned though. It does make sucker punch more useless. A defensive ghost pokemon that can setup totally outplays Mega-khan. There's a lot that will outplay Mega-khan, but people can't do but whine.
2. In competitive OU on Smogon via Pokemon Showdown!, you don't get the luxury of being able to run any set you want to counter everything. Usable sets are established, and they're what everybody go on. Your Doublade, for example, might've been viable in the Mono-type tournament because very few people have actually played Pokemon competitively, therefore it was a casual competition. That Doublade ain't doing **** in the Suspect Ladder, it has no niche other than being a Defensive Ghost/Steel Chansey.



Alright, it's at this point I realized why you're arguing all these seemingly pointless claims that would be deleted if they were actually brought up during the Suspect. :Evidenced by this specific comment"
Tobi wrote: I haven't heard of it before, let alone encountered it.

Alright, let me ask you a question. Do you play using Pokemon Showdown? Do you ever play against people that regularly go on Smogon and Showdown? If you don't then you don't understand how Showdown works. I ain't bashing you or anything by saying that, I was the same thing before getting into Showdown. I just want to make it clear that whatever it is you're playing (I assume Battle Spot) is completely different from Showdown, where Smogon plays (hence why the Suspect Ladder is part of it). In Showdown, namely the OU and Suspect ladders, everybody knows the meta intimately, and knows every viable set. It isn't like any other place, or even UU or RU, as OU is the premier tier/division for Pokemon competitively.

There are certain pokemon one can use in OU and the Suspect Ladder, and while how viable they can be can be changed by somebody who's clever or good enough, their movesets are in fact unchangeable without removing some of their effectiveness. Everything, movesets, EVs, IVs, Nature, and item, is integral to the Pokemon being as effective as possible. For example, Mega Pinsir, a mega I've been using extensively in the Suspect Ladder. It has a very specific moveset to be at its most effective: Swords Dance, Quick Attack, Close Combat, Frustration. However, some people have tried using Feint instead of Quick Attack, but it isn't nearly as effective. You may say "But it lets you attack Pokemon that use Protect if you predict so! AND it's increased priority!". Ok, great, but it's also half the damage of Quick Attack, which also has priority, and a smart Pinsir user would predict the protect by Swords Dancing on it. Some Pokemon, like Garchomp, can run two entirely different sets (Choice Scarf Revenge Killer, Focus sash Stealth Rock setter), or they can interchange one move for another (Vaporeon can run Yawn, Roar, Toxic, or Ice Beam in its fourth moveslot as a staller), but those are the only moves that make the Pokemon viable in itself (Vaporeon could try running any of these moves instead of Wish, but that makes it just about useless).


Doubles and OU Singles are completely different monsters, and Smogon focuses on OU Singles (though Doubles is still supported moreso than Triples and Rotation). Arguing that what they do "isn't fun or contributing to the idea of fun" when you mostly play Doubles isn't fair because their focus isn't Doubles. In Doubles, for example, Swagger isn't as much as a problem because you still have a Pokemon that can do something while the other switches out. A lot of your points made are perfectly logical in Doubles, as I've played there a lot before going back to OU singles, but they don't hold up at all in actual OU Singles 6v6.







Tobi wrote: If that's seriously all you have to say about it, I'm just gonna assume you're salty over Aegislashes outpredicting your butt off.
Not at all. I'm annoyed by how you bring it up like it actually matters as a part of this discussion. You dealt with what's being Suspected before. Congratulations. Other people have done that. It doesn't matter because there are other reasons why you could easily deal with them. I played on the OU ladder in Battle Spot and I do pretty good, even beating lots of teams with Aegislash in them, wow so impressive. Then I went into the Suspect Ladder and suddenly I was lucky to get 2 wins in a row, because people are good and play smart in the Suspect Ladder. My Slwobro/Escavalier/Mega-Ampharos wrecked face in Battle Spot, even though I ran Power Gem instead of Volt Switch on Ampharos. It'll probably lose every time I use the team in the Suspect Ladder because it isn't as good when the people playing are good, and know how to actually play Pokemon.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Post by Tobi »

Nova! wrote:No crits can't. Also, just because you put up a "whole ******* list of ways" doesn't mean it's not unfair. Everything has a whole ******* list of ways to avoid them, but usually that involves having to run ****** sets or moves that could be better spent running good moves/sets. I'm not going to run Earthquake on Pinsir just to deal with Aegislash (literally the only reason Earthquake is used on Pinsir).
You're not getting the point. The moves are **** because evasion is uncommon. Why? IT'S BANNED. Whining about Earthquake on Pinsir is such a *****y argument, earthquake is a very useful move on Pinsir that can effectively take out other pokemon. Sure, it might be the only reason to give Pinsir that move, but I doubt you'd be using all other moves then suddenly shed a victory tear when you see an Aegislash so you can FINALLY use that one move your Pinsir was given when you decided to go anti-meta on Aegislash. Bull****. Most moves that counter banned things are viable to properly use outside of given anti-meta. It's no excuse, it's whining.
Nova! wrote:...But who actually wants to run Confuse Ray? Swagger had the benefit of being on literally just about every Pokemon, since it's a TM. Without Swagger confusion is a worthless status to run when Pokemon such as Sableye are better off running Will-O-Wisp.
Because 50% chance to not attack and do chip damage that might take out a possible focus sash as well is a good thing, and it takes away the danger of using it on a physical attacker that just destroys Sableye at +2?

Worth mentioning, Sableye is also a good counter against Aegislash. It burns, it confuses, it recovers, Aegislash outspeeds it and you get Foul Play.
Nova! wrote:See, that's where you lose all credibility with your argument.
It's still bull**** that a move that does 100 bp damage, always hits (in given situation) and has a 100% chance of confusion is considered competitive while a 90% chance to hit confusion that raises attack isn't competitive.
Nova! wrote:Alright, let me ask you a question. Do you play using Pokemon Showdown? Do you ever play against people that regularly go on Smogon and Showdown? If you don't then you don't understand how Showdown works. I ain't bashing you or anything by saying that, I was the same thing before getting into Showdown. I just want to make it clear that whatever it is you're playing (I assume Battle Spot) is completely different from Showdown, where Smogon plays (hence why the Suspect Ladder is part of it). In Showdown, namely the OU and Suspect ladders, everybody knows the meta intimately, and knows every viable set. It isn't like any other place, or even UU or RU, as OU is the premier tier/division for Pokemon competitively.
I don't play showdown because the layout is confusing, you can create illegal pokemon (trick chandelure, pikachu with various event moves, etc), you're not fighting with pokemon you raised but rather pressed a few options in on a computer and I just think it's for sour people without a 3DS and X/Y. No offense though.
And that makes 0 sense. Wasn't showdown around like a month or two after X and Y were out? Why would Smogon base their meta on Showdown, a simulation of the actual game? And why do people still care about what people do in tiers in X and Y?
Nova! wrote:There are certain pokemon one can use in OU and the Suspect Ladder, and while how viable they can be can be changed by somebody who's clever or good enough, their movesets are in fact unchangeable without removing some of their effectiveness. Everything, movesets, EVs, IVs, Nature, and item, is integral to the Pokemon being as effective as possible. For example, Mega Pinsir, a mega I've been using extensively in the Suspect Ladder. It has a very specific moveset to be at its most effective: Swords Dance, Quick Attack, Close Combat, Frustration. However, some people have tried using Feint instead of Quick Attack, but it isn't nearly as effective. You may say "But it lets you attack Pokemon that use Protect if you predict so! AND it's increased priority!". Ok, great, but it's also half the damage of Quick Attack, which also has priority, and a smart Pinsir user would predict the protect by Swords Dancing on it. Some Pokemon, like Garchomp, can run two entirely different sets (Choice Scarf Revenge Killer, Focus sash Stealth Rock setter), or they can interchange one move for another (Vaporeon can run Yawn, Roar, Toxic, or Ice Beam in its fourth moveslot as a staller), but those are the only moves that make the Pokemon viable in itself (Vaporeon could try running any of these moves instead of Wish, but that makes it just about useless).
I feel like OU is mainly based around pure power, stall and status, nothing else. OU pokemon need to be put on the field, do nothing and be fine on their own.
Feint does 30 while Quick attack does 40, so it's 3/4th. I'd say it's a good idea, but it only works situational, and that's the problem with most moveset changes. (honestly i want to get a Pinsir with that just to try it out) I do enjoy such ideas though because it's at the least unexpected and might throw the opponent off. I go by something not a lot of people go by "If you haven't seen it before, fear it." simply because you don't know what it will do.
I actually run Wishprotect on my Vaporeon with Scald and.... I believe Acid Armor. Works fine for me. I guess that when running pokemon like that, you just want too much. Why would you put two different status moves on the same pokemon? You can't poison and sleep the same pokemon.

But yeah that's the fun of Pokemon, if not everyone fully follows the meta, people wouldn't know what the Pokemon runs. Volt switch, thunderbolt, hydro pump, will-o-wisp and everyone knows which pokemon I'm talking about that rarely runs any other moves.
Nova! wrote:Doubles and OU Singles are completely different monsters, and Smogon focuses on OU Singles (though Doubles is still supported moreso than Triples and Rotation). Arguing that what they do "isn't fun or contributing to the idea of fun" when you mostly play Doubles isn't fair because their focus isn't Doubles. In Doubles, for example, Swagger isn't as much as a problem because you still have a Pokemon that can do something while the other switches out. A lot of your points made are perfectly logical in Doubles, as I've played there a lot before going back to OU singles, but they don't hold up at all in actual OU Singles 6v6.
Wasn't safeswag partly the reason they banned swagger in the first place?

I've lately been playing more singles than doubles though, the tournament caught me on and I'm not really up to date with the strategies I wanted to try out, but it's nice to not always see a Charizard Y in battle. Though now I feel like a jerk for having a Talonflame, because in singles, I utterly hate those ****ers.

My point is, is that you won't win every battle with your team because it doesn't counter everything. Back in the monotype tournament, your Gallade wrecked me, because I didn't think of having to deal with a scarfed Gallade (though there were other factors like the will-o-miss that could have helped me getting rid of it, but it simply didnt happen). It's also a situation in which I can explain why evasion is a bother.

I wouldn't change my team over it. Great, a Gallade wrecked my team, whatever. If it was a meta that scarfed Gallade would be in at least 30% of the teams, I will run a counter for it to get rid of those annoying Gallades, and if everyone started doing that, they wouldn't be in the meta anymore.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

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Showdown came out before XY.
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