Smogon discussion (metagame)

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Do you like Smogon's metagame? (read post first, please)

Yes
2
17%
No
5
42%
I don't, but I do like their builds.
5
42%
 
Total votes: 12

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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:09 pm

I guess it wasn't as popular until a little after X/Y then? I didn't hear about it until I saw people use the teambuilder to show off movesets, let alone know it was a battle simulator.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Rajikaru » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:24 pm

Showdown is the best Pokemon for anybody that doesn't want to waste all the time training the Pokemon only for them to realize after all the training they got the wrong Nature, for example. It's incredibly easy to use, and it's easy to get into it as well. There are lobbies available to chat with other competitive Pokemon players, and it doesn't require purchasing every new Pokemon. Also, people like playing Pokemon for its competitive just as much as raising the Pokemon, shockingly enough. Hell, you can have that shiny Ninetales you always wanted, name it, and have it viable for competitive play right when you start to boot!

Also, I'm not going to bother arguing any points you make because at this point there's too much of the "I just hate Showdown" factor which ruins the entire point of trying to explain why they do what they do. If you want you're welcome to talk to one of the Smogon members in t he next Suspect thread, maybe you'll get better answers.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:48 pm

It's called laziness. You, along with a few other people on here, own X/Y and play on showdown, so you can't really get away with the argument of having to own the game.
It's like downloading mods for brawl so you don't have to play through the storyline to get your characters.

There was like, one, maybe two paragraph in that wall of text that was about showdown since you mentioned it. Pokemon =/= showdown, though showdown = pokemon. Showdown means nothing to me, except that it's a damn handy teambuilder for my pokemon on x/y.

The point of this topic was to discuss smogon matters with users on CI. If I wanted to talk to smogon members, I'd go on smogon to talk to them.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby EvilPinkamina » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:01 pm

Showdown is the grocery store of pokemon. You could make all your food by yourself, or you can buy it from the store.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:03 pm

I doubt that's a good metaphor, since making your own food from bought ingredients is usually cheaper than buying it.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby EvilPinkamina » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:05 pm

Not bought ingredients. Raised. Raise the cows, chickens, pigs, etc. Grow your crops. Etc. Etc. Or you can just buy it.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:14 pm

It'd be more time consuming, but cheaper in the long run.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby EvilPinkamina » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:19 pm

It'd be more time consuming.
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あぼーん!

Postby Palmpoa » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:14 am

あぼーん!
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:24 am

Pokemon is comparable to MLP in that case. They aim for a different audience, and don't bother with aiming too much on the audience that plays it since, let's be honest, you'll play the game no matter how much you preferred the previous generations, no matter how much you hate the new mechanics, etc. Pokemon wouldn't release a Showdown comparable because Pokemon was never meant to be a pure strategic battle game, but rather a game in which you raise your pokemon to send them into this strategic battle. I personally find that if you play Showdown solely for not wanting to raise pokemon, you're not a real pokemon trainer. You didn't raise that pokemon. You did ****all to get it. You typed, clicked and dragged and boom bam, there's your pokemon.

You're not a cook if you use a cake mix.

That is all I have to say about Showdown.

Spoiler:
Though personally, I can see myself eventually giving into showdown to battle people that can't battle with x/y, or to try out strategies I need tutor moves for. I might get hooked and play in class or something, since whipping out a 3DS is not really something I can do in class. I won't replace x/y though until oras comes out.
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あぼーん!

Postby Palmpoa » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:29 am

あぼーん!
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:48 am

You're not wrong with that, but I rarely heard of anyone who played Showdown for previous generation mechanics.

It's compared to mlp because mlp is being watched by 18+ adult men while they were aiming for little girls, and even though that's a fact, they don't change their content so the adult men would enjoy it more.

Just like pokemon is aimed at younger kids, a lot of teen and even adult people play it and watch the anime. They still don't intent to fit the game to our desires.

Sure, mlp throws in a pony with a fedora. Sure, pokemon makes the meta more competitive.

And yes I do assume that, but in a more generalized case. Just saying that people ranting about kanto being better should have picked up a different pokemon game eventually. I only own Emerald, Diamond and X. In general, people will buy the new pokemon game as long as they have the money and the console for it.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Rajikaru » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:10 am

Pokemon the game isn't aimed at anybody specifically other than "person who likes pokemon or video games". Hence the "Everyone" USRB rating and constant references to things kids wouldn't understand. That isn't the same as MLP which is clearly aimed at girls ages 4-12 and developed a cult following by adult males.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:14 pm

Mlp says the same though...?
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Jeffery Mewtamer » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:45 pm

As far as target audiences go:
I think it fair to say that Pokemon, or at least the main games, have always been targetted at a general audience. The anime and some of the spin-off games are targetted at a younger audience, but I would argue that its people who fail to understand the concept that "All Ages" is a valid target demographic who declare the franchise universally "for kids".
As for MLP, yes, the target audience is little girls, and all Hasbro wanted when they started production on FiM is a series of 22-minute commercials for their cheaply made toys. However, all evidence I have at my disposal indicates that the FiM writers wanted to make something that the whole family would sit down and watch with the youngest daughter because they actually enjoy the show instead of any sense of any sense of familial obligation. The fact that the show has a largish audience of older people without little sisters or daughters to watch it with says that they probably succeeded better than they ever suspected.

Also, the comparison to pen-and-paper games isn't exactly new. Afterall, Pokemon(at least the main games) is of the genre of video games that took its name from pen-and-paper and table top games that preceded them in the pre-digital age.

As for simulators vs the actual games: While I'll agree that using a simulator is the lazy persons option, giving how time consuming it can be to build one semi-perfect team(and some of that time consuming part requires unavoidable grinding), I can't blame some for wanting to skip the boring part. At least such people are fighting in an arena where everyone is fighting with perfect mons instead of hacking mons and decimating people's hardwork in the games. If simulators are your cup of tea, and you don't want to bother with the games, that's fine. That said, it does come accross as elitist when simulator players start disparaging people for playing the actual games and taking the time to actually raise a team or trying to enforce every nitpicky rule that is standard practice in their simulator of choice to the comparatively lawless battles using the games built-in PvP.

As for there never being a legit battle simulator: While not quite reaching feature parity with any of any of the popular simulators, Iat least Stadium GSC(and I'm pretty sure other games in the console battler series) gave players without proper teams the ability to rent Pokemon and I'd be surprise if none of them offered a 2-player mode using rental teams.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Rajikaru » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:30 pm

Concerning the console "battle simulator" idea, I don't think that's going to happn anymore. The latest game of that type, Pokemon Battle Revolution, was critically panned for how little it had if you didn't have a Gen IV game. Plus, X/Y have better looking Pokemon models than any other Pokemon game I've seen, and since the point of the games aside from the RPG-ish Gen III gamecube games were to have a realistic looking setting to battle your sprites in, it wouldn't be necessary. If Gev VI introduced a "rental team" system for, say, online play, it would hopefully have good teams to battle with as rentals, because from what I remember in games like Battle Revolution (discounting the RPS games again) the teams were fairly horrible: three starters, all only at their second evolution, and 3 Com Mons, only one of which was actually good (Staraptor in the female's team). While that's all fine and dandy for offline, it's not going to help the player do anything besides lose online.

Showdown is more for the battles than it is for the actual raising of Pokemon. While I concede that I love the main pokemon series (I even played through W2 recently though it's severely out of date and there's no point for me as I don't have Pokemon Bank), raising good Pokemon is just a pain in the ass, even though it was made easier this generation. It's not fun in any way, and the only good thing it does is give relatively higher chances for Shinies (I caught my first shiny from a horde I found while EV training, and I also saw another shiny that I missed because it looked so damn similar to the regular Weepinbells), and this is coming from a guy who's actually spoiled when it comes to raising Pokemon (I was able to get a flawless IV Ditto clone as well as a 31/31/31/31/31/0 Trick Room SHINY Ditto clone, meaning I have to do much less breeding). Showdown is much simpler, and it has varied music from the past 3 generations (my favorite is the VS rival from B2/W2), plus battles go much faster thanks to not using the actual attack animations. While the main pokemon games only get better and better, Showdown is just better for the more competitive players that like battles that aren't "Oh, this trainer sent out a grass pokemon, time to send out Blaziken". Plus, you can't even do good 6v6 battles in Battle Spot, you can only do them with friends, and 3v3 aren't nearly as fun as 6v6.

Also, the free HA Torchic completely broke the XY for most people including me, it was so hilariously strong.
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あぼーん!

Postby Palmpoa » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:33 am

あぼーん!
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Rajikaru » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:04 am

Plus, it was really unplayable unless you used an all-Legendary team or knew a lick about competitive. The only reason I won any battles was literally because my strategy consisted of "spam roar of time, then spam spacial rend".
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あぼーん!

Postby Palmpoa » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:12 am

あぼーん!
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:10 am

Nova! wrote:It's not fun in any way, and the only good thing it does is give relatively higher chances for Shinies (I caught my first shiny from a horde I found while EV training, and I also saw another shiny that I missed because it looked so damn similar to the regular Weepinbells

Doesnt matter for you, you just check the shiny option and you got one.
Nova! wrote:Plus, you can't even do good 6v6 battles in Battle Spot, you can only do them with friends, and 3v3 aren't nearly as fun as 6v6

You can challemge bypassers instead and they now have a no item 6v6 format.
Nova! wrote:Also, the free HA Torchic completely broke the XY for most people including me, it was so hilariously strong.

Now youre on showdown, and everyone can have one by typing blaziken and click the HA though...
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あぼーん!

Postby Palmpoa » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:41 pm

あぼーん!
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby EvilPinkamina » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:35 pm

Tobi wrote:Doesnt matter for you, you just check the shiny option and you got one.

Shinies are only aesthetic, and sometimes not even as good as the original skin

Tobi wrote:You can challemge bypassers instead and they now have a no item 6v6 format.

No item is practically the AI. Plus, they more than likely have an all legendary team.

Tobi wrote:Now youre on showdown, and everyone can have one by typing blaziken and click the HA though...

Blaziken is Ubers.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:50 pm

Yeah? But Showdown doesn't exclude ubers??
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby EvilPinkamina » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:15 pm

If you're speaking competitively, Ubers isn't considered a competitive tier. The only competitive tiers are OU and, to a lesser extent, UU. Not to mention almost everyone has the HA Blaziken anyways, so its not like using Diance in showdown when you don't have access to it.
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Re: Smogon discussion (metagame)

Postby Tobi » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:18 pm

People have Diancie through cloning from people who did have access to it. Diancie is legal now, but very hard to get. I'm not sure how it's cheating to get pokemon that you dont have xy on showdown, you will do that anyway.
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