[SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

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Pulsar24
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[SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Pulsar24 »

Not sure if this is old information, but I couldn't find any of this on the site.


How to Determine Chao Grade Genotypes Without Hacking

As an example, I will use my purebred two-tone normal chao, Silas, who has a grade phenotype of SSSSS. Note that in all genotype descriptions of the form X? X? X? X? X?, the phenotype is represented by the "X" and the hidden allele by the "?"

1) Assemble a collection of 2-4 chao of known genotypes (Black Market or starter chao are best, as their grade genotypes are pure with the exception of the stat raised during evolution. Based on prior testing, I have concluded that a stat raised during evolution will raise only one of the chao’s alleles (at least when both alleles in the stat are identical; further testing is required to determine what happens when the alleles differ from each other), e.g. if the chao’s genotype is EE BB CC DD AA before evolution and the A is raised to an S rank, its alleles for the stamina grade will be SA, not SS.)

Silas will breed repeatedly with Aster, a pure shiny monotone white, and Mara, a pure two-tone normal, via soft reset.

2) Breed the chao, paying close attention to the grades where the phenotypes differ between the chao.

Example:

Silas (S? S? S? S? S?) x Aster (EE CC BB SA DD) = CSBAD, SSDSE, SCBED (3/20 results)

Notice that Aster does not have a C in swim, D in run, or E in power or stamina anywhere in her genome. Therefore, those grades must be Silas’s hidden alleles. Also notice the A in the first example child’s power stat. If we determine that Silas’s hidden power allele is E, then Silas could not have provided the A allele, and it therefore belongs to Aster. This supports the concept mentioned earlier that when a stat grade goes up, only one of the alleles receives the increase.

Furthermore, after I repeated this cross 20 times, nothing other than C or S appeared in the fly slot. With reasonable certainty, we can be sure that Silas has either a C or S as his hidden allele in fly. However to be absolutely sure, we’ll need to mate him with a chao that has a different allele in fly

3) Mate the chao being sequenced with a different chao to determine any grades that still remain inconclusive.

Example:

Silas (SC S? SD SE SE) x Mara (CC EE DD BB SA) = CSDES, SESBA, SESSS (3/20 results)

After 20 repeats, the Silas x Mara offspring never yielded anything other than an E or S in fly. If this information is taken with the information from the Silas x Aster offspring, it can be concluded with almost perfect certainty that Silas’s hidden allele in fly is an S. The E in the first example offspring's power slot further confirms that the earlier A rank that appeared in the Silas x Aster cross indeed belonged to Aster.

Silas’s genotype is SC SS SD SE SE.


Can Grades Go Up When 2 Chao Are Bred?

This question surfaced when I realized the implications of a chao with an SS set of alleles in any stat. If such a chao breeds, then the babies of said chao will ALWAYS receive an S allele in that stat. I have heard many times that it is impossible for grades to go up as a result of breeding, but as a result of my experimentation with chao genome sequencing, I was beginning to have doubts as to the validity of this assumption.

I bred Silas with Mara once more to obtain a baby (Expy, the experiment :P) with stats of CESBS. I then evolved said baby into a neutral normal chao (so as not to affect the fly grade through evolution). I proceeded to mate this baby with Mara (Yes, I know, it’s incest. That’s not important to the results of the experiment, and chao don’t seem to mind), who, once again, has a genotype of CC EE DD BB SA. Here were the 15 results:

CESBS, SSDES, CESES, SEDBS, CSDBS, CEDBS, CEDES, CEDBS, SEDBA, CEDBS, CEDBS, SEDBS, CSDBS, CEDBS, SESBS

Expy’s hidden S alleles (provided by Silas) in his swim and fly stats have manifested in around half of the babies despite both Expy and Mara having a phenotype of C in swim and E in fly. Expy therefore has the effective usefulness of a SSSBS chao (his genotype is CS ES SD BE SS) in breeding applications despite his comparatively mediocre CESBS phenotype.

Grades can indeed go up as a result of breeding! If one takes to the time to track the genetic histories of one’s chao, one can possibly produce babies with poor grade grade phenotypes that still carry A or S grades (without having to ensure that these grades exist through their visible presence), thereby significantly reducing the amount of time it takes to breed for the elusive all-S chao!


What Happens When a Chao Evolves in a Stat that Already Has an S-Rank?

Silas, ironically, was a Neutral/Fly/Fly chao in his first life, and he had a genotype of SS in fly. I hypothesized that if an S-ranked stat is "upgraded" through evolution, then the chao's hidden allele will automatically become an S-rank.

To test this hypothesis, I reincarnated Silas and raised him into a Neutral/Run type. I then mated him with Kady, a black market purchased shiny monotone white.

Silas (SC SS S? SE SE) x Kady (CC SA EE BB DD) = SSDBD, SSSSS (I promptly raised this one :P), CSESD (3/20 results)

The general idea was to test for a D in the run stat. If any of the offspring had a D in run, it would indicate that Silas's hidden allele did not increase through evolution. Surely enough, I received such D-ranks in the run stat several times, indicating that my previous hypothesis was incorrect. Hidden alleles do not improve if an S-ranked stat is "upgraded."

To take this idea further, it is likely impossible to improve hidden alleles through evolution (needs further testing, but is well-supported by the other information here). If this proves true, then chao with hidden S alleles are actually more valuable than those in which the S alleles are visible because, even with poor grade phenotypes, these chao can not only pass on their hidden S-ranks, but they can also "upgrade" their grade phenotypes into S ranks. This, in turn, increases the chance that the offspring will inherit an S-rank from these parents.


Other Notes

Note the distribution of C vs. S and E vs. S in swim and fly respectively in the “can grades go up?” experiment. These distributions are consistent with all grade alleles being equally dominant. I have found this to be true in all of my breeding with Silas as well.

When I bred Silas with Aster (and 20 times further with Kady, another shiny monotone white), not once did I receive a non-shiny offspring (in all of the Aster and Kady trials combined). All of the offspring were either shiny monotone white or shiny two-tone white. This leads me to believe that the shiny gene is dominant over the non-shiny gene. If this holds true, any results that produce a non-shiny offspring from a shiny parent must be either shiny (impure) x shiny (impure) crosses or shiny (impure) x non-shiny (pure) crosses.


Conclusions (Recap)

When a chao has identical alleles in a single stat, only one of those alleles (the phenotype) will improve when the chao evolves.

Chao grade genotypes may be sequenced without hacking. This can be done by breeding the chao to be sequenced with other chao of known genotypes and deciding which grades must be hidden alleles based on the offspring.

Chao grades can go up as a result of breeding.

Hidden grade alleles likely cannot be increased by evolutionary means (as I said before, this needs more testing for certainty, but is well-supported by my other evidence).

All chao grades are equally dominant.

Shininess is dominant over non-shininess.


Please feel welcome to ask questions if you don’t understand anything, or to test this for yourself if you are skeptical. However, I’m fairly confident that you’ll find your results to be consistent with these.
Last edited by Pulsar24 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:26 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Mamkute
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Re: Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Mamkute »

I love you.

I have seen you comment on other chao based things, and you knew what was going on, and I am very happy to see new people with such a knowledge, and intrigue in chao. Not to mention that you have shared with the site a very good, sensical, example supported idea on chao Grade genetics, an area that, as far as I know, has remained only minimally organized, with just vague ideas on the topic. In summary, this all makes sense, and I very much enjoy having such a thing organized.
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Re: Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Pulsar24 »

Well, it's nice to know that I seem to have contributed something useful, and I appreciate your input. :P

I still have a few more ideas in regard to chao grade genetics that I haven't tested as of yet. I'll be sure to report my findings when I'm finished.
Last edited by Blade Genexis on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Crystal_Talian »

Any clue about what happens after the first time a chao evolves?

For example, let's say I hatch a pure chao with these genes: AA CC DD EE BB. Then I evolve to be a swim chao, making it AS CC DD EE BB.

After that, I reincarnate it, and make it a flying chao. Would that make it's genes AS CB DD EE BB? Would there be anyway to raise the hidden grade genes?

Sorry if it says up there, but I didn't see anything about it.
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Pulsar24 »

^A pure chao that evolved in swim and had the genotype AA CC DD EE BB before evolution would have a genotype of SA CC DD EE BB after evolution, not AS CC DD EE BB (In the way that I show genotypes, the allele of the phenotype is always listed first, followed by the hidden allele). That means the chao would go from a phenotype of ACDEB to SCDEB, but its hidden alleles would still be ACDEB.

That said, you are correct that after reincarnating the chao and raising it in fly, it would show a phenotype of SBDEB, but, once again, its hidden alleles would remain ACDEB in spite of this (its genotype would be SA BC DD EE BB). There is no difference between a chao's evolution in its first life and its evolution in its subsequent lives.

Furthermore, as far as I know, there is no way to raise hidden alleles save through breeding. It's possible that hidden alleles may rise during Chaos Chao evolution, but the point of testing such a thing is moot and impossible without hacks, as Chaos Chao can't breed.
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Rhys Coker (SB) »

Wish I knew this before my chao made 'ol Rupee. X{
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by cinnamonstyx »

Because of my lack of current interest in the subject at hand, I can't really comment on the actual contents validity or whether or not it's been brought up before.
That said, holy schmoly that's a lovely explanation there. I applaud you, son.
I'd also like to say that Silas is a cool name, and like Mamkute, I love you.
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Crystal_Talian »

Hello, there. I'm sorry if there are rules on bumping old topics, but I cannot remember. I do no believe there are. I had a question, though. I was wondering if the information provided in this thread has been disproved? I ask because it does not match what is on the main site, which says Chao can carry up to three grade possibilities, and that shininess and non-shininess are equally dominant. I was wondering if this was because the site is outdated, or if it was because what is on the site had been proven through the use of an editor or other means.

Thanks~
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Mamkute »

Bumping old topics is discouraged, but allowed if needed. I suppose this is needed enough.

What is on the main site is correct, proven through use of hackery to peer deep into chao coding. This was made a while back, and although technically incorrect, was very close, and a good theoretical mechanism, but alas not correct.
Shininess and Non-Shininess are equally dominant (except the Shiny Jewel chao concept leads to some oddities there, but as a whole, yes.)
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Crystal_Talian »

I see. Thank you.

Is there any way to determine a Chao's genetic grades without hacking? Are they like the other genes where the chao you get in the beginning and ones you buy are homozygous?
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

To my knowledge, starter Chao and Black Market Chao are all genetically pure across the board.

Without hacking, you can only directly view a Chao's current Stat ranks, and even then, this can only be done with SA2. I suppose that, with enough data points, you might be able to determine a Chao's Rank genetics aby observing the stat ranks that show up in its off spring, but that would probably be more trouble than its worth if you have a way to read the not displayed data.
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Crystal_Talian »

Only through the classic data tracking and experimentation route, then. I'm on the original Gamecube version, so I don't have access to a chao editor or anything like that.

And one last question. If I understand it right, a chao can only pass on grade genes for its current and DNA grades, but not ones it had in the past.

For example, let's say I have a pure chao that starts with a D in run. I raise it into a run-type so that it has a C, reincarnate it, and repeat the process. Thus it's current run grade would be B. It would be capable of passing one of its two DNA D genes, or its current B grade, but not the C it had in its previous life. Is that correct?
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by SilverRabbit »

Interesting information I think i'm learning could things about Chao that I haven't know :3
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Re: Chao Grade Genetics

Post by VisiChao »

Pulsar24 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:26 am Well, it's nice to know that I seem to have contributed something useful, and I appreciate your input. :P

I still have a few more ideas in regard to chao grade genetics that I haven't tested as of yet. I'll be sure to report my findings when I'm finished.
Perhaps you can answer this question for me. Grades of a non-shiny vs. a shiny chao bought from black market, does one have better quality grades than the other?
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Re: Chao Grade Genetics

Post by Mindacos »

VisiChao wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:59 pm
Pulsar24 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:26 am Well, it's nice to know that I seem to have contributed something useful, and I appreciate your input. :P

I still have a few more ideas in regard to chao grade genetics that I haven't tested as of yet. I'll be sure to report my findings when I'm finished.
Perhaps you can answer this question for me. Grades of a non-shiny vs. a shiny chao bought from black market, does one have better quality grades than the other?
Nope, at least not from my experience. All black market chao seem share the same grade spread.

If you want to try this on your own, you'll notice that you'll often get a combination of "ABCDE" regardless of what egg you purchase.
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Re: Chao Grade Genetics

Post by quartzlcc »

Mindacos wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:25 pm
VisiChao wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:59 pm
Pulsar24 wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:26 am Well, it's nice to know that I seem to have contributed something useful, and I appreciate your input. :P

I still have a few more ideas in regard to chao grade genetics that I haven't tested as of yet. I'll be sure to report my findings when I'm finished.
Perhaps you can answer this question for me. Grades of a non-shiny vs. a shiny chao bought from black market, does one have better quality grades than the other?
Nope, at least not from my experience. All black market chao seem share the same grade spread.

If you want to try this on your own, you'll notice that you'll often get a combination of "ABCDE" regardless of what egg you purchase.
I swear I remember this being the case when I played SA2:B on GameCube. Now I'm playing it on the Xbox 360, and I keep getting *terrible* chao stats. My shiny grey has CDDED, no lie.
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Re: [SA2B] Chao Grade Genetics

Post by chaoadventures »

I feel the need to chime in and say I found lots of variants in grades while playing SA2B on the GC from Market chao, however, absolutely every chao I got from the Tiny Chao Garden had a ABCDE variation.

I can say that I’ve gotten a chao with an S in an a grade from the Black Market but not the TCG.

Maybe it’s the game’s default algorithm but other factors can change it?

Maybe it has something to do with that determines what egg colors you can get?

Hmm...
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