[SADX & SA2B] First evolution and gradual evolution.

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[SADX & SA2B] First evolution and gradual evolution.

Postby Fusion » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:18 am

I might have posted some of this elsewhere, but I'm going to put it in its own thread for future reference. This will be going on the main website very soon, where it will be explained more clearly and in-depth. Most of this probably applies to SA and SA2 too, but I can't be sure.

Chao can have a gradual evolution in both in the child and adult stages of its life. In the adult stage, this is called second evolution. A chao's "first evolution", where it enters a cocoon, is decided only by its current gradual evolution; stats have absolutely zero effect on first evolution. This is why people sometimes have their chao evolve into an unexpected type.

Gradual evolution works by storing three values in the chao's data: an Alignment slider, a Run ↔ Power slider, and a Swim ↔ Fly slider. These three sliders each run from -1.0 to 1.0, with 0 representing neutral.

There is also an Evolution Strength or Magnitude slider, which runs from 0 to 1.2. This increases slowly over time as the chao ages, and it is what determines how visible the chao's current gradual evolution is. However, I won't talk about this much here. For more information, see my thread: [SADX & SA2B] Chao age and lifespan.

For a child chao:
  • Each Swim animal subtracts 0.1 from the Swim ↔ Fly slider.
  • Each Swim Chaos Drive subtracts 0.05 from the Swim ↔ Fly slider.
  • Each Fly animal adds 0.1 to the Swim ↔ Fly slider.
  • Each Fly Chaos Drive adds 0.05 to the Swim ↔ Fly slider.
  • Each Run animal subtracts 0.1 from the Run ↔ Power slider.
  • Each Run Chaos Drive subtracts 0.05 from the Run ↔ Power slider.
  • Each Power animal adds 0.1 to the Run ↔ Power slider.
  • Each Power Chaos Drive adds 0.05 to the Run ↔ Power slider.
  • Each Blue, Gold, and Black animal randomly adds or subtracts 0.1 from one of the type sliders.
  • The last bite of a Dark Fruit subtracts 0.15 from the Alignment slider.
  • The last bite of a Hero Fruit adds 0.15 to the Alignment slider.

For an adult chao:
  • Each Swim animal subtracts 0.05 from the Swim ↔ Fly slider.
  • Each Swim Chaos Drive subtracts 0.025 from the Swim ↔ Fly slider.
  • Each Fly animal adds 0.05 to the Swim ↔ Fly slider.
  • Each Fly Chaos Drive adds 0.025 to the Swim ↔ Fly slider.
  • Each Run animal subtracts 0.05 from the Run ↔ Power slider.
  • Each Run Chaos Drive subtracts 0.025 from the Run ↔ Power slider.
  • Each Power animal adds 0.05 to the Run ↔ Power slider.
  • Each Power Chaos Drive adds 0.025 to the Run ↔ Power slider.
  • Each Blue, Gold, and Black animal randomly adds or subtracts 0.05 from one of the type sliders.

As the baby chao ages and grows closer to its first evolution, its current gradual evolution will have an increasingly pronounced effect on its appearance. A chao whose Run ↔ Power slider leans heavily towards Run will start to form three spikes on the back of its head, for example.

When it comes time for the chao to enter a cocoon and have its first evolution, its new type is decided only by its current gradual evolution. The check works as follows:

  1. Alignment:
    • If the chao's Alignment value is equal to or greater than 0.5, it will evolve into a Hero type.
    • If the chao's Alignment value is equal to or less than -0.5, it will evolve into a Dark type.
  2. Swim type:
    • If the chao's Swim ↔ Fly value is equal to or less than -0.5, and the chao's Run ↔ Power value is equal or closer to zero, it will evolve into a Swim type chao.
  3. Run and Power types:
    • If the chao's Run ↔ Power value is equal to or less than -0.5, and the chao's Swim ↔ Fly value is closer to zero or equal on the positive side, it will evolve into a Run type chao.
    • If the chao's Run ↔ Power value is equal to or greater than 0.5, and the chao's Swim ↔ Fly value is closer to zero or equal on the positive side, it will evolve into a Power type chao.
  4. Fly type:
    • If the chao's Swim ↔ Fly value is equal to or greater than 0.5, and the chao's Run ↔ Power value is closer to zero, it will evolve into a Fly type chao.
  5. Normal and Chaos Chao types:
    • If the chao's Swim ↔ Fly and Run ↔ Power values are both greater than -0.5 and less than 0.5, it will become either a Normal or Chaos Chao type.
    • If the chao's number of reincarnations is equal to or greater than 2, its happiness is equal to or greater than 51, and it has been given at least one of every animal in its current life, then it will evolve into a Chaos Chao type chao. Otherwise, it will evolve into a Normal type chao.

If the chao's Swim ↔ Fly and Run ↔ Power values both happen to be equal:

  • The Swim type takes precedence over all other types.
  • Both the Run and Power types take precedence over the Fly, Chaos Chao, and Normal types.
  • The Fly type takes precedence over the Chaos Chao and Normal types.
  • The Chaos Chao type takes precedence over the Normal type.

After the chao has its first evolution, the gradual evolution values are all reset back to zero, so you'll need to raise them again to get the second evolution that you desire.

Some other things worth noting from this are:

  • Chaos Drives influence chao half as much as animals do.
  • It takes five animals (or ten Chaos Drives) to make a fresh child chao set to evolve into a certain type.
  • It takes ten animals (or twenty Chaos Drives) to make a fresh child chao fully lean towards a certain type.
  • It takes at most fifteen animals (or thirty Chaos Drives) to make a child chao that you are unsure about set to evolve into a certain type.
  • It takes at most twenty animals (or forty Chaos Drives) to make a child chao that you are unsure about fully lean towards a certain type.
  • It takes four last bites (or complete fruit for simplicity) of a Hero Fruit or Dark Fruit to make a fully neutral chao set to evolve into a certain alignment.
  • It takes seven last bites (or complete fruit for simplicity) of a Hero Fruit or Dark Fruit to make a fully neutral chao fully lean towards a certain alignment.
  • To be as safe as possible when trying to get a Chaos Chao, avoid giving it any additional Blue, Gold, or Black animals (beyond the required ones), and give it an equal number of Swim, Fly, Run, and Power animals or Chaos Drives.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Mel Mel » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:14 pm

Seems confusing but I think I get it. ;)
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(12:15:47) Tobi: i mean what

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Tobi » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:48 pm

I think I understand how it works, but specially because of your editor which had those sliders. Now I wonder something... Is there a double second evolution? I mean, something like Dark Run Run-Swim? You got two sliders, one for run-power and one for swim-fly which means you can combine run-swim, run-fly, power-swim and power-fly, right? :o
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Fusion » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:54 pm

Yes, that is correct. You can definitely create those combined second evolutions through hacking, but it's probably possible through normal means too.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Mel Mel » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:27 pm

Just a quick thing. Here is the H/S/S/R, H/S/S/P, H/S/F/P, and H/S/F/R.


Image
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(12:15:40) Tobi: no, mel only owns young children
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(12:15:47) Tobi: i mean what

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(17:44:48) Dr._Roivas: what even are you??????

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby JmTsHaW » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:29 pm

^ I don't think they should be added to the site, they aren't really obtainable ingame.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Tobi » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:30 pm

^I don't see why not. You give swim and run animals both. >.>
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Mel Mel » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:30 pm

@ JmTsHaW: I know. I wasn't trying to get them added to the site. Just letting people get an idea of "Triple Evolution."
(12:15:40) Tobi: no, mel only owns young children
(12:15:46) Tobi: in his basement
(12:15:47) Tobi: i mean what

(17:44:45) Dr._Roivas: eevee.......just like......
(17:44:48) Dr._Roivas: what even are you??????

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Fusion » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:40 pm

JmTsHaW wrote:they aren't really obtainable ingame.

I just tested it and they do seem to be obtainable without hacking.

Using my editor, I increased the garden's time scale to make things progress quicker, but naturally. I didn't touch the gradual evolution sliders myself; instead, I spawned Run and Fly type animals and gave them to my Neutral/Run chao. When in the adult stage, animals have half the effect on the gradual evolution values: they add or subtract 0.05 instead of 0.1, meaning you need twice as many animals.

After giving my chao 20 Run type and 20 Fly type animals, it was maxed out on both sliders. I then waited, and as my chao aged, it grew into a Neutral/Run/Run+Fly type. I'm not sure why these second evolutions are talked about so rarely.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Crazo3077 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:31 pm

That is really interesting that the evolutions are set up like that. I never would have guessed one type of evolution surpassed another.

I remember when I was uber interested in getting a double second evolution. But that....deepens the types. 3 Baby Chao (I realize it is genetically the same but they are practically different types of Chao), 15 First Evolutions, 25 Second Evolutions, 50 Double Second Evolutions, 3 Chaos Chao, 3 Character Chao....99 Types...roughly 81 Breeds...about 8019 possible different Chao, not including Animal Parts, Headgear, and Medals.

Do you know if a Chao will stop taking physical change once it's level reaches 99?
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Tobi » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:34 pm

I just made the entire Normal Shiny Dark triple evolutions. I think Mel also did some from the hero part. I loved Dark Run Run Swim! :3
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Fusion » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:59 pm

Crazo3077 wrote:3 Baby Chao (I realize it is genetically the same but they are practically different types of Chao)

I think the baby chao should either be considered one type, or 9 x 3 = 27. If you're going to include the alignments as a separate type, then the Swim ↔ Fly and Run ↔ Power combinations should count as different types too.

Crazo3077 wrote:25 Second Evolutions

25 second evolutions per alignment, but 75 in total when considering all the alignments.

Crazo3077 wrote:50 Double Second Evolutions

Where did 50 come from? The combined second evolutions add 4 more possibilities per first evolution. This means an extra 20 per alignment, and an extra 60 for all alignments. This makes for an overall total of 135 second evolutions.

Crazo3077 wrote:Do you know if a Chao will stop taking physical change once it's level reaches 99?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, as I believe you know that stat level and points have no effect on evolution. From what I saw in my testing today, it looks like the second evolution strength constantly grows as the chao ages, and gets to around 1.0 just as the chao's life ends.

Tobi wrote:double second evolution
Mel Mel wrote:"Triple Evolution."
Crazo3077 wrote:Double Second Evolution
Tobi wrote:triple evolution

I really don't think these combined second evolutions should be given such a different title; they're not triple evolutions or anything special, they're just additional second evolutions. Just saying "combined second evolution" or simply "second evolution" should be fine. Although, they could be called third evolutions if you consider a baby chao's gradual evolution to be its first evolution, and then its cocoon evolution to be the second.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Crazo3077 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:13 pm

Let me try my math again, using Baby as one type.

Baby (1)
First Evolution (15) [Alignment (3) * Type (5)]
Second Evolution (75) [First Evolution (15) * Second Type (5)]
Mixed Second Evolution (150) [Second Evolution (75) * Opposite Slider Options (2)]
Chaos (3)
Character Chao (3)
Total 247...?

What I was asking about, when talking about a Chao reaching Level 99, is that a lot of people have had issues getting specific Second Evolution Chao when their Chao had Level 99 in the specific stat.
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Twiddle » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:19 pm

I think I understand. It's kind of like colors.
Like when you make green (R: 0; G: 255; B: 0) turn into dark green (R: 0; G: 128; B: 0), and then you can make it olive green by adding red (R: 64; G: 128; B: 0).
Making a Chao's second evolution in between two evolution forms is like mixing colors... right?

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Tobi » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:23 pm

Crazo3077 wrote:Let me try my math again, using Baby as one type.

Baby (1)
First Evolution (15) [Alignment (3) * Type (5)]
Second Evolution (75) [First Evolution (15) * Second Type (5)]
Mixed Second Evolution (150) [Second Evolution (75) * Opposite Slider Options (2)]
Chaos (3)
Character Chao (3)
Total 247...?

What I was asking about, when talking about a Chao reaching Level 99, is that a lot of people have had issues getting specific Second Evolution Chao when their Chao had Level 99 in the specific stat.

I wonder how you wanna count all the chao, specially when looking at the slide. There are TOO much minor changes you can bring, it would be impossible to calculate everything exactly! Or actually, maybe not, but still it'll take an hour of calculating, plus some mistakes, plus forgetting some, plus getting lost where you stopped!
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Fusion » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:26 pm

Crazo3077 wrote:Mixed Second Evolution (150) [Second Evolution (75) * Opposite Slider Options (2)]

You can't multiply the single second evolution total by two. The previously known (or at least widely known) second evolutions have five possibilities: Normal, Swim, Fly, Run, and Power. The combined second evolutions do not double those possibilities. The combined second evolutions just add an extra four possibilities: Swim+Run, Swim+Power, Fly+Run, and Fly+Power. Therefore, the calculation should be:

Mixed Second Evolution (135) [Second Evolution (75) + [First Evolution (15) * 4] (60) ]

Your total also seemed to count the single second evolutions twice. The total should be 1+15+135+3+3 = 157.

Crazo3077 wrote:What I was asking about, when talking about a Chao reaching Level 99, is that a lot of people have had issues getting specific Second Evolution Chao when their Chao had Level 99 in the specific stat.

I wasn't aware of people having any issues with this. I'll take a closer look at it since you've mentioned it.

Twiddle wrote:Making a Chao's second evolution in between two evolution forms is like mixing colors... right?

Yeah, kind of.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Tobi » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:31 pm

^Don't forget the colors .-.

Also, aren't there only 60 mixed second evolutions?
4 possibilities
5 first evolutions
3 alignments
4x5x3=60 :I
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Fusion » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:40 pm

Tobi wrote:Also, aren't there only 60 mixed second evolutions?

Yes, there are 60 combined second evolutions. That's exactly what I said in both of my posts; I was just fixing Crazo3077's calculation where he called it Mixed Second Evolution.

To make this easier to understand and visualise, I created a simple diagram which is hopefully easy to understand. The blue stars are the single second evolutions and the red stars are the combined second evolutions.

Image

Remember that these marked points are the extremes; that is, the maximums. You can theoretically pick any point within those limits and obtain that exact unique second evolution.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Tobi » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:52 pm

^It took a while to translate your calculations, perhaps the dutch way of calculating is different, specially looking at my end grades from 8.6/10 on math....

And that makes a lot more sense. I think nearly everony here should understand the North, West and North-West theory.
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby MoonMintFox » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:44 pm

Mel Mel wrote:Just a quick thing. Here is the H/S/S/R, H/S/S/P, H/S/F/P, and H/S/F/R.


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I'd make them out to be H/S/S-Rs (ect.) insted of H/S/S/Rs (ect.). :U

But hey, it's your opinion.
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Nirvana » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:59 am

I had a feeling 'cause most of my second evo chao don't look exactly the same as some of the chao that are on the main site.

Does chao fruit do anything to the sliders?

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] Evolution requirements.

Postby Fusion » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:40 am

Nirvana wrote:I had a feeling 'cause most of my second evo chao don't look exactly the same as some of the chao that are on the main site.

I'm not certain about the exact settings those chao had in Mooncow's pictures, but I think most people would see slight differences from them. Even if you don't have a hybrid second evolution, your chao might not fully lean towards a type, or it might not have a maxed out gradual evolution strength/magnitude. Any of these things could make it look slightly different.

Nirvana wrote:Does chao fruit do anything to the sliders?

No, I don't believe any of them have any effect on the Swim ↔ Fly or Run ↔ Power sliders. I haven't actually tested every fruit though. If you're actually asking about the Chao Fruit, then I have tested that and can confirm it doesn't make a difference. It does, however, increase the strength of the chao's gradual evolution, like every fruit does. This means it will strengthen the visual effect of the gradual evolution, but not change the type that it leans towards.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] First evolution and gradual evolution.

Postby Chocolatethestarchao » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:28 am

About the sliders... I had a dark chao that i wanted to make a swim chao, but instead it runed into a running chao when it's swim was MUCH higher than it's run... how do you explain that?
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Re: [SADX & SA2B] First evolution and gradual evolution.

Postby Fusion » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:49 am

Chocolatethestarchao wrote:instead it runed into a running chao when it's swim was MUCH higher than it's run... how do you explain that?
Fusion wrote:A chao's "first evolution", where it enters a cocoon, is decided only by its current gradual evolution; stats have absolutely zero effect on first evolution. This is why people sometimes have their chao evolve into an unexpected type.

You must have given your chao enough animals or Chaos Drives from the yellow group so that it leaned towards that type more than any other type.

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Re: [SADX & SA2B] First evolution and gradual evolution.

Postby Chocolatethestarchao » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:02 am

Wouldn't that have made it a swim type, not a run?
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