The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

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The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by UltimaNumber255 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:14 am

I really hope to get some support on this or even video proof someday.

So, one time I was raising my All S-Rank Child Chao in the Tiny Chao Garden, not caring what stats it gets, to get it over 2500 in all stats for the SADX Chao Races. One time, I decided to withdraw it back after just one level in SA2B, and this one level actually raised the stat up by 31! Couldn't remember the numbers it had for the record, but at the time, I KNEW it went up by 31! It's no wonder raising Chao in the Tiny Chao Garden has better stat results, because it gets 1 additional stat point every level, or so it seems.

I don't know if anyone's posted this, but the Stamina Stat CAN be raised in the Tiny Chao Garden, but you need Sonic Advance 2 to do it. Otherwise it will only raise the level but not the stat.

Know what this means? The True Perfect Chao actually has the 5 stats at 3375, and Intelligence and Luck at 4000! But only in the GameCube versions! We can still call the 3266 Chao the "Perfect Chao", but for the 3375 Chao, I shall call it the "Absolute Perfect Chao"

If anyone wants to support this or anything, let me know!
Last edited by UltimaNumber255 on Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by chaoadventures » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:50 am

This has been said before, but I don't remember if the TCG actually shows how much your chao's stats go up every time, so I can't prove it personally, but a recurring finding seems legitimate to me.

And for the record, some fruits raising Stamina is documented.

My question is, can a chao actually cap out at 4000 luck and intelligence? Or is the (artificial) max before this?
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by UltimaNumber255 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:02 am

Well, I just wanted it to be more well-known, and wanted to make sure I wasn't making stuff up. Hopefully they will update, stating only in the GameCube version.

By leveling up Stamina, I meant that in Sonic Advance 1, Stamina can't be raised even when you level it up. Only Sonic Advance 2 can do that. Don't know about Pinball Party.

It's true. In fact, all stats cap out at 4000, but 3375 is the max we can reach with the 5 main stats. Intelligence and Luck can easily reach 4000 due to them having a different grade system, ranging from 0 to 255 instead of E to S, which, speaking of, would like to discuss how I think the grade system works, like the probability of getting the grades.
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:53 am

This is the first I've heard of the TCG giving an extra point when leveling up and Advance 1 having a glitch that prevents stamina gaining points. Have you done any testing on either of these points regarding any of the downloadable TCG versions?

Also, I'm pretty sure 4000 is only the max the games can display and that the value stored in a Chao's data can go as high as 65535, the capacity of an unsigned, 16-bit integer, though it does raise the question of what the games do if you hack a Chao to have stats beyond 4000.

Not for the first time, I wish someone would make a disassembly of some of the games featuring Chao so we could actually examine the code instead of relying on in-game experimentation and how a Chao's data changes. Sadly, the downloadable TCG are probably the only things even close to small enough to make disassembly practical.
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by UltimaNumber255 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:57 pm

I think it works like this, there are two versions of the Tiny Chao Garden. Version 1 has the Stamina Glitch, and Version 2 doesn't. I've only seen the stat boost on Sonic Advance 2, so it's worth testing on every other version. Now that I think about it, using the downloadable TCG from SADX raised Stamina for me, but SA2B's version did not. I don't know about Phantasy Star Online's Downloadable TCG, but it is version 1, but it wouldn't hurt for someone to test.

The way the game limits the stat is like this: If Chao Levels up, raise stat by 10 + (3 * Rank) + Random (1-5). If the equation => 4000 then equation = 4000. This means the game will correct the Chao only when it levels up, and not when only the Stat changes. But if you go beyond 4000 anyway, the game will display the number fine, except when you go to 10000 and beyond, in which the game will only display the first 4 digits, so a Chao with 65535 will read 5535. And the color of the bar will go through many different colors, even repeated ones.

Also, I believe the game has a speed limit, too. As a 65535 Run Chao runs at about the same speed as a 16383 Run Chao. Which I'm still trying to figure out the Speed Formula. All I know is that the maximum safest Power is 4339 and Intelligence is 4981, any higher and Chao will go into a negative timer where they will never figure out how to open the Jack-In-A-Box, or never stop shaking the trees. Stamina only has three colors and the max is 3333 before the game makes the color invisible (Interesting, since the new max is 3375). And Fly comes to a point where your Chao ascends instead of descends. Swim and Luck must have a speed limit/working limit, too.

Well, all I know what to test in TCG is stuff like, does the Chao still want to mate? Is the Chao still hungry? Stuff like that. I know it keeps the bonds and kindergarten lessons learned for sure. Yeah, I would have to agree to be honest, viewing the code at all times would be very helpful to the community, as long as the code is explained.

All this is from memory or from a Wordpad with information from quite some time ago, but I'm still updating, yes, I'm making my own Chao guide, but only stuff I tested myself. I've not raised Chao for quite a while but I will eventually make videos for Chao. ^v^
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:25 pm

Well, it makes sense that the SA2B DL TCG would have the glitch and the SADX version doesn't. I don't remember when the GBA games were released relative to the GCN games, but the original release of the TCG was either SA2B or Saadv1 and I'm pretty sure the final TCG release was eithter SADX or Sadv2.

If I knew anything about ARM assembly, i'd be tempted to try and disassemble one of the downloadable TCG, but sadly, I wouldn't even know where to start with separating game assets from game code. Though, in my search for a TCG rom to download, I did find that Sonic Retro Wiki lists Pinball Party as using TCG v2. And checking my rom collection and finding that GBA is in there, I can tell you that the smallest game including a TCG is 8MB and a toss up between Advance 1 and Pinball Party. by comparison, S3K, to my knowledge the largest Sonic game that has a complete and properly commented disassembly, it only 4MB and has always been more interesting to Sonic Hackers.
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by Mayo » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:22 pm

That's pretty fascinating that Chao's stats can legitimately go beyond 3266. Is the +31 increase always guaranteed though? Or would you have to increase the level by 1, take it out of the TCG to see how much it leveled, and retry if it didn't work? That'd be even more tedious than trying to get +30 for each level and soft-resetting the console if you don't.

Also, can confirm Pinball Party TCG uses version 2 and does indeed increase stamina. Haven't checked if it also increases points by 31, but would infer it could given it uses the same version as SAd2.

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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by UltimaNumber255 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:50 am

Mayo wrote:That's pretty fascinating that Chao's stats can legitimately go beyond 3266. Is the +31 increase always guaranteed though? Or would you have to increase the level by 1, take it out of the TCG to see how much it leveled, and retry if it didn't work? That'd be even more tedious than trying to get +30 for each level and soft-resetting the console if you don't.

Also, can confirm Pinball Party TCG uses version 2 and does indeed increase stamina. Haven't checked if it also increases points by 31, but would infer it could given it uses the same version as SAd2.
Nope, +31 is not guaranteed. This makes getting the "Absolute Perfect Chao" way too arbitrary. MAYBE easier to get at least 3266. And to make matters worse, you have to make a Chao copy, since you must save after getting the Chao back, AND get the real Chao out of the garden just to see if the copy got the boost without erasing your real Chao.

If the all 3266 Chao gets the name "Perfect Chao" should we call the all 3375 Chao the "Absolute Perfect Chao" or the "GameCube Perfect Chao" or "TCG Perfect Chao"?

It would seem that Version 2 in general fixed the Stamina Glitch, but we must confirm if all versions have the +31 Property, I guess we could call it that.
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by Mayo » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:59 am

Heya,

I actually did a quick test to see if it was the TCG fruits themselves that may raise the stats beyond 30 per level. I gathered a bunch of TCG exclusive fruits using Fusion's Chao Editor and fed it to my Chao, enough for it to level up quite a number of times.

Using all TCG fruits, none of them levelled the Chao beyond their usual ranking range, so for an S Rank I only saw increases between 26 and 30.

Unless the requirement needs the Chao to be inside the TCG, you may need to retest this to confirm for certain that a Chao can level up beyond their stat rank range.

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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by UltimaNumber255 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:00 pm

Mayo wrote:Heya,

I actually did a quick test to see if it was the TCG fruits themselves that may raise the stats beyond 30 per level. I gathered a bunch of TCG exclusive fruits using Fusion's Chao Editor and fed it to my Chao, enough for it to level up quite a number of times.

Using all TCG fruits, none of them levelled the Chao beyond their usual ranking range, so for an S Rank I only saw increases between 26 and 30.

Unless the requirement needs the Chao to be inside the TCG, you may need to retest this to confirm for certain that a Chao can level up beyond their stat rank range.
Yes, it works ONLY in the TCG. It matters only that the Chao is in the TCG.

Recently, I've received a message that said you can actually MANIPULATE what Chao can get at level up in the TCG. This is what I've received: "I discovered that, in order to get the +31 stat, you need to give your chao at least 2 fruits before the level up. Meaning that if swim is at 80%, and you give it one orange fruits (which gives 30% swim), you'll never get the +31 in the level-up. However, if swim is at 60%, and you give it 2 orange fruits, you can get the +31 in the level-up!" The one who messaged me also was dedicated enough to get the stats necessary for getting 3375.

I've not tested this myself yet, mainly because I can't really play the TCG right now, except on emu. We should definitely take some research into this, and if it's different between versions!
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by Mayo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:26 am

Well then, I did a spot of testing this morning. Took a bunch of pictures as evidence (inb4 people go 'pics or it didn't happen')

Aim:
To see if Chao can gain points above their usual rank allocation within the Tiny Chao Garden.

Points are typically awarded like this
E Rank: 11-15
D Rank: 14-18
C Rank: 17-21
B Rank: 20-24
A Rank: 23-27
S Rank: 26-30

Method:
4 newborn Chao were selected, making note of their rankings and sending them over to my GBA using cartidge-less download.
After some ring-grinding, I fed them 4 orange fruits and 4 purple fruits. Enough to reach level 1 in Swim, Fly, Power and Run.

Image
The beautiful technology of 2001

Results:

Chao #1
Image
Everything looks like it was levelled normally and within range. Nothing special here.

Chao #2
Image
Same as Chao #1, nothing special here.

Chao #3
Image
Same as Chao #1 and #2, everything was levelled within the usual range.

Chao #4
Image
a-HA! B Ranked Swim was awarded 25 (when 24 is usually the highest) and C Ranked Run was given 22 points (when the highest is 21 per level).

It took a bit of time, but we can safely say that the Tiny Chao Garden can indeed give extra points (albeit still random, but the range of what points you get would be different). I would say it uses a different mathematic formula for levelling up compared to its console counterparts. But there may be a reason behind this.

I hatched a Chao within the Tiny Chao Garden, gave it 3 green fruits and a purple fruit just to raise a couple of levels. Run and Fly didn't get any extra points, but note its levels though, this GBA Chao is born with level 01 instead of level 00. This could mean that each level up within the GBA may be set slightly higher to compensate for the one less level. But at this stage this is more speculation.
Image

Comparing the results from all these Chao, it is also interesting to note that at no point in time did they get the minimum allocated level of points (e.g. 14 in D rank, 17 in C rank, etc), my hypothesis is that, when levelling up Chao within the Tiny Chao Garden, you may get a point allocation like this.
E Rank: 12-16
D Rank: 15-19
C Rank: 18-22
B Rank: 21-25
A Rank: 24-28
S Rank: 27-31

If anyone would like to test along to see if this could be correct, please do so :)

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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:15 pm

Hmm, I wonder...

30 * 98 = 2940
2940/10 = 294
294 + 2940 = 3234
3234/10 = 323
323 + 2940 = 3263
3263/10 = 326
326 + 2940 = 3266

So the loss of that +30 from a newborn All-S chao leveling up from level 0 to level 1 doesn't hurt its ultimate potential and even without doing that math, its fairly obvious the extra stat point overcompensates anyways. Still, there being two off-by-one errors in such closely related functions makes it seem more deliberate(off by one errors are some of the most common errors in math and computer science, but the two here are a bit too close to feel like coincidence). Hmm... Can you copy an egg produced on Gamecube to a downloadable TCG, and if so, does the copy hatch at level 1 while the original hatches at level 0? Also, if you download the egg left when a Chao reincarnates, does it hatch at level 1 in the TCG as it would on Gamecube?

That said, while we have a good hypothesis, I don't think we have enough data to confirm it experimentally.

My suggestion would be to hatch two newborns, one on Gamecube, one in TCG, ideally with no matching stat grades and the one of Gamecube having an S rank you can use to prevent evolution tainting the data. Raise both to lv 99 in everything, noting how many times each value for a stat boost comes up(this might require running the TCG in an emulator to view the stat values if they aren't displayed in-game. Done right, this would give us 99 data points per experimental group per stat rank for five of the six stat ranks, which should give us not only a clear idea of the range of stat increases and how they differ between Gamecube and TCG, but also a clear idea of their distribution(i.e. is their a 1/5 chance for each stat increase, or are some values more common than others?). Repeat for each release of SADX and SA2B and each version of the TCG to see if there are any other discrepancies.

Sadly, my blindness prevents me from playing any of the games involved, much less conducting the experiment and gathering the data, and I know of no reliable means to automate something like this.
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by UltimaNumber255 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:57 pm

OMG Mayo, you've done and proved it! So indeed Chao just mainly outright gets a +1 bonus as long as it's in the TCG. But what about Stamina? You haven't raised them a single level... See if they do raise with the version of the TCG you have. We've still yet to research if the level up gains can be manipulated. We can easily test this using VBA and checking the coding. There should be a guide to hacking your Chao via VBA if you don't know, and even if you don't want to hack, you can at least determine what stats it does have by looking at the Hex.

Someone I know is indeed going for the all 3375 Chao, and so far is on their second life! (Can't even believe he reincarnated his Chao so many times to get all S rank.)
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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by Mayo » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:16 am

My experience with hacking is using some AR Codes and modding through Fusion's Chao Editor, so nothing too complicated. That being said, if I could find a memory viewer of sorts to check the game's innards while emulating the TCG (and perhaps find a way to get infinite rings to mass feed a Chao enough for 99 levels), that could help with determining exactly what points you get across the different stat rankings.

I just used the TCG to grab an egg from there and sent it to my SA2B File. When I hatched it, the Chao had level 00 in everything. So starting with level 1 only happens when the Chao was born within the TCG.

You unfortunately cannot send eggs to the TCG, it has Drop Off greyed out when holding an egg on the Transporter.

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Re: The true maximum Stats a Chao can have.

Post by UltimaNumber255 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:06 pm

Well, in VisualBoyAdvance, you can use a memory editor built-in to hack the Chao, for the stats, these are where you find them:

SA1s SA1c SA2 SPP Skill Points (Won't even let me type space multiple times...)
03003050 03003040 03003C10 03004B30 Swim
03003052 03003042 03003C12 03004B32 Fly
03003054 03003044 03003C14 03004B34 Run
03003056 03003046 03003C16 03004B36 Power
03003058 03003048 03003C18 03004B38 Stanima
0300305A 0300304A 03003C1A 03004B3A Luck or Intelligence
0300305C 0300304C 03003C1C 03004B3C Luck or Intelligence

SA1s is single pak, and SA1c is combo pak. I have no idea about the downloadable TCG though.

In any case, you can hack or view the Chao's stats if you compare hex to numbers. Somewhere out there has a full guide to hacking Chao with this method, but I cannot find the guide anywhere. I have the guide downloaded on me and can't remember where I got it. You can hack or view just about as much as you can with Fusion's Chao Editor. If you REALLY want this guide and cannot find it yourself, feel free to PM me about it. (Since I don't want to put a link here only for it to be nothing eventually.)
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