[SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

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[SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

What are some unknown and/or unproven things you have always wondered about but can't test, or don't want to test?
I'll try to do some of these, and maybe compile them into a YouTube video some day, now that I have more editing capabilities.
You guys could even do some of the tests if you wanted to. Don't though, I need more things to do in my spare time.
List:
Correlation between Drowning and Sickness and Happiness - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_y9Bhp9wEA (Suggested by CanSteam) (Inadequate Video)
Conclusion: Drowning and Sickness do not affect Happiness throughout a Chao's lifespan.
Lifespan of a sick Chao versus a normal Chao - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5h8F2IS5z0 (Suggested by CanSteam) (Inadequate Video)
Conclusion: A sick chao has the same lifespan as a cured chao.


Keep in mind while suggesting things to test that I can currently only test on the PC version of Sonic Adventure 2 Battle. I might be able to test Sonic Adventure PC 2004, but that might be a while from now.
Last edited by CanSteam on Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

Dump of stuff that I've discovered but too lazy to put in a proper format
- Being in an alignment garden( dark, hero ) will affect the Chao's alignment.
Spoiler:
e.g. a newly hatched chao when left in the Dark Garden until it evolves, will most likely evolve as a Dark Chao.
Image Hatched
Image Before Evolution
Image Right after Evolution
- Chao grades when hatched approximately follow a standard bell curve.
Spoiler:
Image A sample of 75 grades from 15 chao showed in a histogram.
Last edited by CanSteam on Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ideas for Chao tests

Post by UltimaNumber »

Try maybe a test of hatch many new Chao and see what grades they all get. I would like to know the approximate odds of getting each grade, including intelligence and luck.

SA2 for steam might not have enough proof as that game as RNG pre-determined per copy.
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Re: Ideas for Chao tests

Post by Nessie »

Could have several games run the experiment.
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Re: Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

Image Here's the graph of the grades I got from 15 random chao samples from the Black Market. This results in 75 total grades( Swim, Fly, Run, Power, and Stamina multiplied by the sample of Chao.) It seems that the grades from Chao follow a standard bell curve, with the average grade (C) being the most common and best and worst (A and E) being the outliers, and thus least common.

Edit: I can test this with eggs of which you start with on the GCN version when I get home tomorrow from school. It might be different.
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

Since stat grades are discreet data rather than continuous data, I don't think terms like bell curve, normal distribution, and histogram are correct here. The discrete counterparts to the normal distribution and histogram are the binomial distribution and simple bar graph.

That said, it's quite cool, and more realistic to nature, that Sonic Team gave stat grades a binomial distribution instead of the easier to code flat distribution.

For those unfamiliar with the terms above, a flat distribution gives all values equal probability, akin to rolling a fair die once. The binomial distribution gives the probability of getting k heads from n flips of a fair coin.

Though, for a binomial distribution across an even number of outcomes, we'd expect the two middle values to have equal probability with the mean being an impossible outcome between the middle values and expect the distribution to be reflected across the mean(i.e., we'd expect C=B>D=A>E=S). If instead, the data more closely resembles c>D=B>E=A>S, we might be dealing with something more complex under the hood.

Would you mind hatching another five Chao to give us 100 data points to trivialize expressing the probabilities in percentages and post the raw counts of each stat grade since I can't see the graph? Actually, might be a good idea to post both the counts for each stat and the totals to test the assumption that the stat grade distribution is the same across all visible stats.
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by UltimaNumber »

Playing the Gamecube version might help more since the steam version is all pre-determined, while the gamecube is not. I find it surprising that there is not a single S rank in there since I know it's possible to get one from a newly hatched Chao without breeding. And I do agree, it would be scientifically better if you had 100 results, perhaps even with 100 Chao, just in case each grade has it's own percentage of getting grades. But two stats, Intelligence and Luck, I'm afraid has to be done on steam because of Fusion's Chao Editor. I could do it myself, when I'm not busy.
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

Is it possible to get an S Rank without any evolving or breeding? I don't think once in my Chao career has it happened to me.
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

Image Here's a handy chart and graphs.
For clarification, I meant 'antimode' as in the value that repeated the least.
Spoiler:
The first letter is swim, second is fly, third is run, fourth is power, and fifth is stamina.
1 BDCDC
2 CCBBB
3 ABCDE
4 CDCCD
5 BCDCD
6 DCDED
7 CBEAD
8 BBDCC
9 CBBCB
10 DDDAE
11 EDCBA
12 CBBBC
13 CCBBB
14 EDEBC
15 EECAC
16 BECBE
17 CCEDD
18 CEABD
19 EECAC
20 CCBCC
And here's the raw data

Interestingly enough, it seems that Power seems to overall be more biased to be better, at least in this set of data.
EDIT:
Spoiler:
Image
Graphs of all grades

It seems that even with a low sample size, all of the grades seem to follow a... normal curve.

I think the only true way to figure out the true chances of each grade is through looking through one of the Sonic Adventure game's code. More accurate results would probably be produced from Sonic Adventure DX 2004, as from what I've heard, it has more regular RNG than SA2B 2012.
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

Disassembling and documenting all of the Chao related code across all versions of all games featuring Chao raising(and even the A-life system from NiGHTs into Dreams for the sake of completion) would be the holy grail of Chao research, but sadly, that's the kind of thing that would drive even the most hardcore of hackers crazy in the attempt. Shame its impossible to recover the original source code from a compiled binary and that its unlikely the original source will ever be released assuming Sega even still has copies of it.

Though, if the game is, as I'm starting to suspect, doing the equivalent of flipping six coins and counting the heads each time it creates a new stat grade(and ignoring 0 heads as corresponding to an F-rank), the raw probabilities for each stat grade would be:
6/64: E
15/64: D
20/64: C
15/64: B
6/64: A
1/64: S

So, even across 20 hatches, we'd only expect 1 or 2 S-ranks to show up. Also, this gives a first approximation of 1-in-4096 for the probability that a Starter or Black Market egg will have two S-ranks, and a probability on the order of one-in-a-billion for getting an All-S Chao from the Black Market.

Alternatively, if the game is doing the equivalent of flipping 4 coins to determine a rank between E and A and S can only be gotten through evolution and breeding, the probabilities work out to(in terms of /64 for easy comparison):
4/64: E
16/64: D
24/64: C
16/64: B
4/ 64: A

Making A and E ranks somewhat rarer while making B, C, and D ranks more common.

Of course, there's other ways the games could approximate a binomial distribution. Generating a random number in the range 1-63 and counting the 1s in its binary representation, for example, generates essentially the same results as the six coin example without need for what to do in the 0 heads case.
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by azureprism »

Fusion's Chao Editor shows that one of the basic garden-generated Chao on my SADX PC save file was born with ECDSD for its grades.
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

Could someone with SA2B PC test a new Chao file and buy 5-20 black market eggs to see if they have the same pattern of grades as mine? Image You might have to have the game not touched at all in you computer though.

Also, okay, I guess S ranks can appear in natural chao. Time to break out the GCN!
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

Image
There's a slight repetition that makes me hesitant to continue the GCN SA2B tests.
Either
A. The original 2 Chao grades you get by starting a new chao file are determined per file
B. The original 2 Chao grdes you get by starting a new chao file are determined per character (I did tests 1 and 2 as Eggman)
or C. The game keeps rolling the same RNG because of the game being reset.
Perhaps someone else could try to test these with me?

Edit: Odd. I tested Eggman again without doing anything, and it had the same results as the first 2 chao tested. Then, I reset the Chao data and played a level of Iron Gate to presumably reset RNG, but it still yielded the same results as the first Chao.
Edit2: I started a new file, triggered chao world as Eggma, and wouldn't you know it, the Chao had the same grades as the first 2 tested.
Soooo... how would I get reasonable results from this without farming rings?
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by azureprism »

Once I set my Gamecube up again, I'm planning on buying an egg from the black market and resetting without saving after checking its grades. Do you think that'd work without the RNG messing up? I know that SA2B saves changes to the main save file's ring count immediately, but luckily that also allows the sell reset glitch to take place. Have you got any high value eggshells lying around?
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by chaoadventures »

You erased your chao data but did you erase your main save each time? That might be important for the game's initial RNG.

Alternatively try:

Making a new save slot on the same memory card (i.e. having 2+ saves at once on the same memory card and using them instead).
Using a different memory card.
Playing through different levels and then entering chao world.
Finishing Iron Gate with a very different time (wait like, 3 extra minutes before finishing)
Changing GC date and/or clock.
Image


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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

azureprism wrote:Once I set my Gamecube up again, I'm planning on buying an egg from the black market and resetting without saving after checking its grades. Do you think that'd work without the RNG messing up? I know that SA2B saves changes to the main save file's ring count immediately, but luckily that also allows the sell reset glitch to take place. Have you got any high value eggshells lying around?
I looked up how to farm rings, and I just sold a watermelon until I was at 20000 rings. I plan on selling the highest ring count Wool Hat later on.
chaoadventures wrote:You erased your chao data but did you erase your main save each time? That might be important for the game's initial RNG.

Alternatively try:

Making a new save slot on the same memory card (i.e. having 2+ saves at once on the same memory card and using them instead).
Using a different memory card.
Playing through different levels and then entering chao world.
Finishing Iron Gate with a very different time (wait like, 3 extra minutes before finishing)
Changing GC date and/or clock.
1. I tried that, same results.
2. I don't have one availabe.
3. I also tried that.
4. That will take too long.
5. This will also take too long.
Also, does anyone know how long you have to wait for the Black Market reset?
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by chaoadventures »

Clarification just to make sure we're referring to the same things here.

When I say change date and time, I mean change the date by like, 3 years and like, 2 weeks, and then see if anything changes in a repeat of your previous experiment, but not changing it every egg hatch.
I wouldn't think this one would take too long in comparison to the initial experiment, since the grade pattern would probably be detectable if it's the same as before in this case.

In addition to that, assuming your clock is calibrated to the current date already, putting it back to say, 2001-2005 might do something, but that's just a loose thought.

Everything else is a sound statement though.
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Re: [SA2B] Ideas for Chao tests

Post by CanSteam »

azureprism wrote:Once I set my Gamecube up again, I'm planning on buying an egg from the black market and resetting without saving after checking its grades. Do you think that'd work without the RNG messing up? I know that SA2B saves changes to the main save file's ring count immediately, but luckily that also allows the sell reset glitch to take place. Have you got any high value eggshells lying around?
This does work! Here's my proposed expirement for the both of us:
1.Start chao file
2.Buy expensive item(preferably 6000 rings in cost or more)
3.Put expensive item near entrance of Chao garden
4.Save Chao Data
5. Go back into chao garden, grab the Item and head to the Black Market
6. Check black market for Chao egg that is cheaper than 1500 rings(Cost can go higher; depends on which item you chose. Do the math for high sell item + egg sell price. All sell prices are 1/4 of buy price, including egg shells from eggs.)
7. Buy egg, and sell your expensive item. If there is no egg, or no egg less than X rings in cost, just sell the item and repeat from step 5.
8. Hatch egg by throwing(This is fastest method of hatching)
9. Pick up Chao, and check its grade from the Doctor
10. Mark down grades
11. If you want/need to sell the chao eggshell, do that now.
12. Reset game by pressing X+B+Start.
13. Repeat steps 4-12 until sufficient sample is reached.

Also, I did indeed misunderstand your statement Chaoadventures. I will test that when I gain access to my Wii again.
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