A Rant about what Sonic Heroes started

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Rajikaru
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A Rant about what Sonic Heroes started

Post by Rajikaru »

I've been mulling over this for a while, it's 2 AM, I just finished some macaroni and cheese, and I wanna kill time until I inevitably fall asleep for 12 hours. Let's go.

Before I go into a tirade that will be mostly flawed and I'll feel like an idiot after everybody points flaws out while belittling me and calling me a knacker, let's look into the past.

Specifically, the Dreamcast era.

It all starts with Sonic Adventure. Unlike Nintendo, who had a very good idea of how Mario should play out in 3D which shows with how Super Mario 64 was recieved, Sega wasn't so sure about Sonic's gameplay. 3D graphics in gaming was still relatively a new concept, and the main draw of Sonic was speed, which wasn't as easy to translate. Thus, Sonic Adventure, with its 6 different main methods of gameplay (along with lots of mini games, like pinball tables, snowboarding, and flying jets), was primarily testing ground for the gameplay. Was that bad in practice? Not at all. While the game wasn't solid, it was still recieved favorably and set Sonic as a force to be reckoned with in the new console generation. Any kinks could be ironed out with the inevitable sequels.

Sonic Adventure 2 appeared on the scene, and while it wasn't as vast an improvement as one could hope for, it was definitely still good, both relatively and over-all. 3 of the more monotonous/superfluous gameplay options (Sonic levels with flying and rubber banding AI rivals, Sonic levels but slower and with a heavier emphasis on puzzles and platforming, and fishing) were removed, and the 3 remaining gameplay options were "improved". At least, Sonic's stages were; the levels were made more streamlined, the controls were tighter, new mechanics such as somersaults and grinding were introduced, and a new character was added which doesn't really affect much except unique stages that have darker, forgive me for using this word, aesthetics. The other two gameplay modes were subjectively "improved": emerald hunting introduced more levels, and you had to hunt the Emeralds in a set order. Also gigantic space levels. Meanwhile, with Gamma dead, Robotnik and Tails were introduced as the new mech controllers, and the time limit was removed (though the usual 10'00 over-arching limit is kept). Also, the controls became clunkier, locking on became a pain, and if anything, it definitely felt like one was controlling a dumb pair of robot legs that didn't feel good. Also the unique speeding up was removed entirely and the levels became much more focused on platforming. Also, NEW mini games were introduced (the dumb racing, chao karate, and that's about it actually), and over-all the game was more linear with no hub worlds and only two stories. However, let's focus on Sonic's gameplay in each game, because let's be honest, people didn't buy the Sonic Adventure games saying "Oh man, I can't wait to control Tails in robot legs!".

Was SA2 an improvement? That's debatable, some people may say the more streamlined levels put a great emphasis on the speed and there were definite control improvements. However, I personally feel that a bit of spirit was loss, and the game started leaning towards letting the game play for you (while the grinding was really neat and a fun mechanic, it was basically just being stuck to a predetermined route and maybe hopping to a different one in a few levels). That doesn't mean either was bad, quite the contrary; there's a reason the two games were some of the best the Dreamcast had to offer (aside from there not being much competition of course).

Then, the Dreamcast dies, Sega gives up the console war, and Nintendo starts publishing Sonic games (though for a while Sony also got Sonic games, except for the original 2 Adventure games oddly). Now we enter the latter half of the Dreamcast era:

Sonic. Heroes.

I hate this game. I hate it like I would hate a person who gave up a great opportunity because they felt better ones would come eventually. Yes, I played through it. Yes, it was my second ever Sonic game (after Sonic 2). Yes I eventually got the full final ending.

I don't hate it as a game. It's not horrible, and can be enjoyable if you try. I hate it because of what it started.

At its core, Sonic Heroes could've been the Super Mario Galaxy and rocketed Sonic into greatness. The levels? Absolutely beautiful, and all unique, especially hard considering how many level archetypes had already been used in 3d Sonic games. Giant beautiful sea with a bunch of islands and giant turtles? Hell yes. Carnival-esque Casino with a bunch of cool attractions? Giant Airship Fortresses,b eautiful green jungles full of giant wildlife, metropolis-like cities. Not to mention how much Sonic Team obviously referenced the classic 2D titles. A more cast-focused story, with the return of Metal Sonic, now as a bigger bad than ever before. Levels with 2 acts and a boss, the bosses usually being infinite runners. Classic mini-game infinite runners to actually get the Emeralds instead of receiving them as the plot demanded.

But then some idiot looked at Super Mario Sunshine, and went "Oh, that game's got a unique mehcanic and is successful, we should add a gimmick to our next game to!"

What he forgot was that not only was the FLUDD mechanic well thought-out, it wasn't even that big a change, just a simple new set of physics and a new abilty to defeat enemies, by spraying them with water. Plus let's not forget how Super Mario Sunshine, while it did well, was nowhere near as popular as Super Mario 64 or the eventual Super Mario Galaxy.

Thus, team action was born. Doesn't sound that bad, right? Knuckles Chaotix got away with it without it being too much of a pain, and hell why not even give that game a nod by re-designing the characters and adding them to the roster? Awesome.

Here's all the things Sonic Heroes did wrong, because I got stuck here and didn't know what else to write to lambaste Sonic team.

Knuckles Chaotix had teams as a concept, but you could choose from a few characters, each with unique abilities, and the gameplay was otherwise pretty much unchanged from other Sonic games except for the characters' respective abilities being introduced. Sonic Heroes, however, just said "**** that, let's throw 4 teams in", and made them all no different except for very minor changes (I'm going to refer to each team by their leader unless otherwise noted because I don't like typing out each team's name):
  • Sonic and Shadow can ring-dash, which is never actually used as a mechanic.
  • Amy can slowly descend instead of just falling by holding jump in mid-air(even though Flying or even actually floating exists in the game already making it more than useless).
  • Espio can permanently stick to walls when Triangle jumping, which not only pops up as an actual mechanic about 4 times throughout the game as a whole, but the sticking is never used as a mechanic in itself. He can also turn invisible, which is an actual mechanic twice at the most (I know it's used once, but otherwise I can't remember).
  • Sonic's Team Blast just kills enemies and can stun bosses. Shadow's Team Blast is Chaos Control, which freezes time for 10 seconds. Amy's Team Blast destroys all enemies and makes you invincible. Espio's gives you rings based on enemies killed and is also admittedly pretty goofy and cool.
  • Knuckles and Omega shoot their teammates like cannons as mid-air attacks. Big and Vector bounce instead.
  • (also Knuckles is small unlike other Power characters)
Now what?
"Why not give each team a unique story where they intersect and fight other teams?"
"Sure, that sounds cool, but we only have enough levels for one full story."
"Just give them all the same levels in the same order and maybe make them shorter or longer depending."

It's the same game 4 times in a row, with incredibly minor differences between each playthrough:
  • Sonic's levels are just normal.
  • Shadow's levels are a bit harder, and he gets tougher enemies.
  • Amy's levels are shorter and she also has a tutorial level before the actual game.
  • Espio's levels involve doing some sort of mission each time.
  • The bosses are all the exact same. The only difference is how much health they have.
The levels aren't even in different order to make the gameplay a bit more enjoyable. You start in the same stage, you go through the stages in the same order, and you end on the same stage. Four times. To actually beat the game.

The team mechanic itself. It's stupid. Spindashing is useless because they made it some weird team shoot thing that doesn't even go much faster relative to normal running. Flying parts are just mashing the A button and hoping you don't run out of "Fly power energy". The power mechanic is ok, but for a game series that's all about speed, especially in this game where momentum is ramped up tenfold and levels are incredibly linear, stopping to fight a few enemies and open up a door is an annoyance at best. There's no deep gameplay related to the Fly or Power formations, as the levels are obviously designed with just the speed characters in mind, except roadblocks are added in to make you switch your stance every once in a while.

Oh yeah, and sometimes the game just flat out won't work. Loading times are heinous, there are rampant bugs in almost every level, and some levels are almost impossible to play without experiencing at least one "oh you're dead for no reason" glitch, like the grinding just not working some time. Also the camera is ass.

Sonic Adventure was an okay game. While there was a lot of filler, and most of the extra gamemodes weren't very enjoyable, as well as the story being nuts, Sonic's levels were still super fun to play and speedrun, and he has the most levels, lacking only one level that other characters also had (there were around 12 levels and each level had at least 3 characters that appeared in it; Sonic had a whopping 11 playable levels). Sonic Adventure 2, again, was an okay game. The treasure hunting was somehow made worse than how it was in SA1, the mech levels took everything unfun about the Gamma levels in SA (which were probably the second best levels in the game after Sonic levels) and attached a super annoying loud buzzing sound whenever you locked onto enemies, and the story was even more crazy than the previous, but now you got two times the Sonic levels, and they were all just as fun, if not more fun, than the SA1 Sonic levels.

If Sonic Team had kept the "Don't fix what isn't broken" mentality going into Sonic Heroes, we might've had the Sonic Generations of the Dreamcast Era. Imagine it: the Sonic Heroes levels, but instead of 3 characters at once, you're only playing as the speed characters, with every bug fixed, and no more roadblocks to ruin the superspeed feeling. Infinite Runner Bosses and somewhat linear but still complex levels, just like the original Sonic games.


Sonic Heroes got the whole "innovaton" ball rolling, and was continued with Shadow the Hedgehog, which at its core was another Sonic game except the controls were even worse than before, and guns were also a thing. Also, vehicles were added, the very definition of superfluous. Everything was going awful because Sonic team wasn't sure people would accept just plain old Sonic up until they did good with Sonic Colours, and then Sonic Generations and things seemed brighter for at least a moment, until Sonic Lost World because "nah another game like Sonic generations in spirit will never sell, we should try Super Mario Galaxy but with Sonic!". And then Sonic Boom.

At their cores, Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog, and hell, even more recent games like Sonic '06 and Sonic Unleashed, were the 3D sonic games that could've been great and kept Sonic from becoming a laughing stock. They had everything there: beautiful graphics, unique levels, and amazing music (luckily the music wasn't mulled down by ****** mechanics, contrived storylines, and bad controls). Sonic team was just too self-conscious to try and go for it, so they had to pile stupid gimmick upon stupid gimmick until the whole ****** trash heap that is the Sonic series came falling down on their heads.

In conclusion, please watch this video to get a good idea where I'm coming from.
Last edited by Rajikaru on Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sonic Heroes, or the straw that broke the dead horse's b

Post by Ivogoji »

Major issue with this rant- the idea that SH's gameplay was a response to Super Mario Sunshine is the most random thing I have ever heard.

I am 99.9999% certain the decision to include team gameplay came from a desire to cram as many characters into one game as possible to satisfy fans who were concerned about what characters would be playable in post-SA2 games. Specifically, during the lengthy build up to SA2's release there was lots of teasing Shadow's identity and Eggman being playable, but no news about Tails being in the game until very, very late in the production, something that lead to a minor uproar. The fact that Amy was never playable in the game proper despite the first Adventure title and Sonic Advance putting her on equal ground with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles also raised concern. The team mechanic would not only allow the developers to include the entire cast of SA minus Gamma (but replaced by his spiritual successor Omega, so it's not hard to tell what they were up to) as well as Shadow, Rouge, and Sonic X's newest addition, Cream, but also the Chaotix, whose game served as the inspiration for involved team gameplay. Even Metal Sonic's inclusion as the villain in SH came about thanks to fans complaining about his limited role in the other 3D games. Likewise the return of elements like Special Stages and optional Emerald collecting came about because many fans felt the jump to 3D in the Dreamcast era was too radical a departure from classic games.

The biggest factor in Sonic Heroes' development history has always been understood as Sonic Team responding to the fandom. Pretty much every game between SA2B and Sonic Colors is like that.

The whole idea of the series' low points being from trying to compete with Mario really comes out of left field though, especially in regards to Sonic Heroes. Pure non sequitur.

The lack of variety between the four teams and them having all the same levels can be best attributed to the game not staying in development long enough, in favor of getting a timely release. This is the true franchise original sin: rushing games into stores before they're ready. That's why Next Gen and Sonic Boom suck- they could have been at least decent if they were allowed to bake long enough to be any good. The problem goes back all the way to Sonic Adventure, which was also released pretty early and lacking considerable polish.

"Innovation" is part and parcel of making video games. SEGA will always be trying to do new things that depart from Sonic formula- which is to be expected. That these attempts to try new things often fail stems from SEGA's desire to release games quickly, without sufficiently testing or fine tuning their product, more than anything else. But faulting them for trying to innovate in the first place? I can't do that.

But yeah. There's a reason everybody thought Sonic Heroes was the worst Sonic game ever before Shadow the Hedgehog and Next Gen happened.
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Re: Sonic Heroes, or the straw that broke the dead horse's b

Post by Crash32 »

Sonic Heroes was my first Sonic title, so expect a bit of nostalgia-bias here (kinda? not really?)
In terms of level design, I feel like it had the best. All the levels were bright and exciting.
The gameplay was fun. Fun enough so that I have 4 copies of the game. I've modded it and that's cool. In terms of playability, I feel like it's got more polish than the the Sonic Adventure 1/2 / Sonic 06 titles, the gameplay is kinda messy (similar to the titles previously mentioned) but it works.

Sonic 06 though, in my opinion, is what pretty much killed the series. It had a darker atmosphere like Shadow the Hedgehog combined with the gameplay of Bubsy 3D (which is being generous).
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Re: Sonic Heroes, or the straw that broke the dead horse's b

Post by Rajikaru »

Ivogoji wrote:Major issue with this rant- the idea that SH's gameplay was a response to Super Mario Sunshine is the most random thing I have ever heard.

I am 99.9999% certain the decision to include team gameplay came from a desire to cram as many characters into one game as possible to satisfy fans who were concerned about what characters would be playable in post-SA2 games. Specifically, during the lengthy build up to SA2's release there was lots of teasing Shadow's identity and Eggman being playable, but no news about Tails being in the game until very, very late in the production, something that lead to a minor uproar. The fact that Amy was never playable in the game proper despite the first Adventure title and Sonic Advance putting her on equal ground with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles also raised concern. The team mechanic would not only allow the developers to include the entire cast of SA minus Gamma (but replaced by his spiritual successor Omega, so it's not hard to tell what they were up to) as well as Shadow, Rouge, and Sonic X's newest addition, Cream, but also the Chaotix, whose game served as the inspiration for involved team gameplay. Even Metal Sonic's inclusion as the villain in SH came about thanks to fans complaining about his limited role in the other 3D games. Likewise the return of elements like Special Stages and optional Emerald collecting came about because many fans felt the jump to 3D in the Dreamcast era was too radical a departure from classic games.

The biggest factor in Sonic Heroes' development history has always been understood as Sonic Team responding to the fandom. Pretty much every game between SA2B and Sonic Colors is like that.

The whole idea of the series' low points being from trying to compete with Mario really comes out of left field though, especially in regards to Sonic Heroes. Pure non sequitur.

The lack of variety between the four teams and them having all the same levels can be best attributed to the game not staying in development long enough, in favor of getting a timely release. This is the true franchise original sin: rushing games into stores before they're ready. That's why Next Gen and Sonic Boom suck- they could have been at least decent if they were allowed to bake long enough to be any good. The problem goes back all the way to Sonic Adventure, which was also released pretty early and lacking considerable polish.

"Innovation" is part and parcel of making video games. SEGA will always be trying to do new things that depart from Sonic formula- which is to be expected. That these attempts to try new things often fail stems from SEGA's desire to release games quickly, without sufficiently testing or fine tuning their product, more than anything else. But faulting them for trying to innovate in the first place? I can't do that.

But yeah. There's a reason everybody thought Sonic Heroes was the worst Sonic game ever before Shadow the Hedgehog and Next Gen happened.
My point wasn't that the innovationg was because of mario games, even though it's feasible. My point was that the constant innovation does nothing good for Sonic games - note Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations, the two games considered over-all the best out of the past non-handheld Sonic games, with the biggest unique gimmicks for each game being respectively, unique power-ups depending on the alien picked up, which is a constantly used mechanic, and re-introducing class Sonic gameplay.

Too short devlopment time can be used as a bit of an excuse for some of the games, but it isn't why things go ******. Short development time didn't force the people making Shadow the Hedgehog to make Shadow the Hedgehog, guns and all. Short development time isn't why the Werehog is universally panned. Short development time isn't what killed Sonic Boom, it's the QA team eventually becoming literally one person. We also have no way to confirm that short development time is why Sonic Heroes is the same game over 4 god damn times. That's not something you say "eh, just leave it be, they won't mind!".

Plus, short development time doesn't kill a game. You say that Sonic Adventure was pushed out sooner than it should've, but it's still, even without much polish, a great game, and considered one of the better 3D Sonic games. A game can still be good even with bugs.
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Re: Sonic Heroes, or the straw that broke the dead horse's b

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

In all fairness, Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the same exact game four times over if you play it to completion with every playable character set-up(Granted, Sonic solo vs Sonic and Tails doesn't make much difference unless you play co-op with the latter), and similar can be said of Sonic 2(including Knuckles in Sonic 2), Sonic Advance 1/2, and probably other Sonic games I can't think of at the moment. Of course, where many other Sonic games that have you playing the same levels over and over with different characters succeed where Heroes fails is that most of them actually differentiate the characters enough that your choice of Character feels like it actually matters. Of course, it probably doesn't help that Heroes forces you to complete missions analogous to ones that added replay value in SA2 just to finish the story(Chaotix gameplay being analogous to the Lost Chao missions and Dark gameplay being analogous to Hard Mode).

While Heroes was the last Console Sonic I played, everything I've read about later Sonics does make it sound like Sonic Team has a bad habit of tossing stuff out and experimenting from scratch instead of building on what actually worked. I'll admit the Team mechanic in Heroes was poorly executed and rather 1-dimensional, but I wish they had built upon it instead of scrapping it altogether.
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Re: Sonic Heroes, or the straw that broke the dead horse's b

Post by Rajikaru »

The sad part is the Team mechanic from Chaotix was brought back and done right in Sonic Advance 3, where there were 5 characters with unique traits, and the traits were constantly used to the point you had to playthrough the game a lot more than two times and it was constantly fun.

Honestly, I can't help but feel if the handheld Sonic game creators were given a chance with the Sonic series, they'd do right. Even the arguably "worst" Sonic handheld games (Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic Rivals?) weren't that bad, and all of the others like the Sonic Advance series, Sonic Rush, and even the more recent were all considered pretty good. Hell, Sonic Battle was pretty hype, and that was completely original in idea and had a unique character people actually liked.
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Re: Sonic Heroes, or the straw that broke the dead horse's b

Post by LimitCrown »

The Rocket Accel is more useful than people give it credit for. If it is used effectively, you can travel at high speed while having invincibility frames. It has the wind effect that the tornado has, so it's useful for removing the shields that some Egg Pawns can have if they are in front of you Also, you receive bonus points for lifting at least two enemies off of the ground within a short time period.

In Sonic Heroes, there are many ways to defeat the enemies. Depending on the placement and the different types of enemies, certain formations may be more useful in certain situations. When the characters level up, they can easily deal with the the weaker enemies and even the stronger ones. If the power characters are at level 2, then they can easily destroy the Egg Hammers with one ground combo.
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Re: Sonic Heroes, or the straw that broke the dead horse's b

Post by Rajikaru »

Bumping this thread because I edited the rant to not look like it was written by a 17 year old that just learned about curse words, and also because I wanted to respond to an almost year-old post:


Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:In all fairness, Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the same exact game four times over if you play it to completion with every playable character set-up(Granted, Sonic solo vs Sonic and Tails doesn't make much difference unless you play co-op with the latter), and similar can be said of Sonic 2(including Knuckles in Sonic 2), Sonic Advance 1/2, and probably other Sonic games I can't think of at the moment. Of course, where many other Sonic games that have you playing the same levels over and over with different characters succeed where Heroes fails is that most of them actually differentiate the characters enough that your choice of Character feels like it actually matters. Of course, it probably doesn't help that Heroes forces you to complete missions analogous to ones that added replay value in SA2 just to finish the story(Chaotix gameplay being analogous to the Lost Chao missions and Dark gameplay being analogous to Hard Mode).

While Heroes was the last Console Sonic I played, everything I've read about later Sonics does make it sound like Sonic Team has a bad habit of tossing stuff out and experimenting from scratch instead of building on what actually worked. I'll admit the Team mechanic in Heroes was poorly executed and rather 1-dimensional, but I wish they had built upon it instead of scrapping it altogether.
The biggest difference is that you want to play Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 over again, for the most part. The levels are all enjoyable, and the characters are different enough that there are possible alternate routes that, for instance, Sonic can't get to, but Tails or Knuckles can. In Sonic Heroes, if you want to actually complete the game, it's almost a "But Thou Must" feeling: you have to play the game over 4 times in a row.

Also yea the characters are way more different than the teams in Sonic Heroes could ever dream of being.
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Re: A Rant about what Sonic Heroes started

Post by PinkIceFox »

I'm just popping in here to say, I loved Sonic Heroes.

Specifically because it brought me Epsio and Vector (and Charmy I guess). They are like. My favorites besides Knuckles and Nack.

I was disappointed there was no over world areas like Sonic Adventure, or unique levels for each character/team at least like in SA2B. I was even more disappointed there was no Chao garden. (I WANTED TO RAISE CHAO WITH ESPIO AND VECTOR!!!!)

It did make Metal Sonic cool though. And had a freakin' awesome boss song.

TRY TO REACH INSIDE OF ME. TRY TO TAKE MY ENERGY. LET ME SHOW YOU JUST WHAT I'M MADE OF.

However it did also show us robot shadow clones and my god that was dumb as rocks. Also I could never beat the final stage of team dark for some reason.

I did really like the chaos emerald challenge games though that was neat.

(Seriously lack of Espio/Vector chao cuddling was a major flaw. Major flaw. Major.)
Darn kids and their boost mode. In my day we had Spin Dash for speed AND WE LIKED IT.
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Re: A Rant about what Sonic Heroes started

Post by Sable »

this is a mild bump but the forum is dying for the most part - either way i feel like it's necessary to respond to some of your criticisms as i've been attempting to 100% heroes over the past couple of days
Nova! wrote: Sonic and Shadow can ring-dash, which is never actually used as a mechanic.
this is just straight up wholly untrue.

grand metropolis has plenty of alternate pathways reached by using the light speed dash.
it's mandatory to continue in power plant unless you do some tricky jumps as tails.
casino park requires great use of it, there's a MASSIVE trail from the VIP room to the VIP table.
rail canyon and bullet station have alternate pathways, as does frog forest.
lost jungle has a really annoying mandatory path that's fairly long.
hang castle has like, two i want to say
mystic mansion has a really long one leading to the trials chamber
final fortress has a couple mandatory ones.

plus if you're going for a good score you're gonna see a ton of ring paths you can use to increase your points disregarding pathways.
Nova! wrote: two times the Sonic levels
SA2 has ten speed levels, the exact same amount as SA1
Nova! wrote: loading times are heinous
never experienced this in the console versions
Nova! wrote: oh you're dead for no reason
LOST JUNGLE
Nova! wrote: mashing A
if you're mashing A in flight formation you're doing it really badly, you just hold it
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