GUN turned Eggman evil

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GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Triert » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:59 pm

(Thank you again Tvtropes for supplying most of what I'm going to crunch together here.)
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Space Colony ARK, 50 years ago, the program was shut down and everyone involved was murdered. Gerard Robotnik had two known grandchildren at this point in time. Maria, and Ivo Robotnik. One was killed and the other became a mad scientist hell bent on global domination.

But as Mojo Jojo said it once himself, villains are created, not born. Here you have a child that couldn't have been older than Maria who heard how his cousin and later his own grandfather, a brilliant mind, were both killed. It's safe to assume Robotnik was drastically changed by these events and became the same kind of scientist his grandpa had been. The Death Egg, of which we can assume was modeled after the Death Star but now we can also assume was based on the ARK itself. Eggman constantly putting his face everywhere is a result of how Gerard put his face on the ARK, even in later games Eggman can still be seen attacking GUN aligned nations.

To simply put, the purge of the ARK caused Eggman to seek vengeance against GUN.

Next, has anyone here except for perhaps Ivogoji ever looked up the origin of Robotnik? It's a Polish/Eastern Europe/Russian word. 50 years ago, a colony in space, an eastern european doctor and others killed? We're reaching victims of Cold War paranoia here. Why stop there? Has anyone ever considered the possibility that the various zones Sonic crosses through in his games weren't all created by Eggman unless they were the last couple of ones? Chemical Plant Zone, Oil Ocean, Metropolis, Star Light. My assumption on these zones are all located in eastern europe, Eggman took over the industrial power of his region to supply his forces.

So in short, GUN made Eggman nuts, Robotnik family is eastern european, and Eggman took over his own region to build up his forces.

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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Ivogoji » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:28 pm

Certainly a factor in his behavior, but perhaps an over simplified version of events.
Triert wrote:Chemical Plant Zone, Oil Ocean, Metropolis, Star Light. My assumption on these zones are all located in eastern europe, Eggman took over the industrial power of his region to supply his forces.
No, these places are all located on islands in the south pacific, as explicitly stated in the manuals of Sonic 1 & 2. Almost all the Sonic games occur in warm areas close to equator, with jungles and beaches always close on hand.

If I had to guess where Eggman's family was from, I would go with Monopole, the location of the Riders games. I base this on:
1- The presence of Robotnik Corp and Meteor Tech, corporations evidently operated by Dr. Eggman, the former likely a family business.
2- Eggman's ability to operate in the open there. Monopole must be far outside the United Federation, where GUN robots would be dropping out of the sky at the first sign of this man, and Eggman must have a lot of personal sway over the local authorities to keep them from interfering with him. Along with that, his desire to become Monopole's king in Free Riders.
3- Monopole's huge concentration of advanced technology. It looks like the Space Colony ARK on Earth! The Robotniks were either created by this place, or they created it.

Where is Monopole? Its close proximity to the ruins of Babylon Garden suggest Sonic-verse Iran or Egypt. A middle eastern kingdom made rich by oil and modernized by a family of scientists with unlimited capital? Of course the Robotnik name is European, but families emigrate all the time. Gerald's father might have moved there to take advantage of the oil industry while it was still young, or they might have descended from European colonials who were sprinkled throughout Africa and the middle east in the decades before WWI.

Your Cold War observation is lucid however. During that time the west was arming the nations of the middle east to fight the spread of communism from the Soviets and China- quite the reversal of our present political situation. Doubtless there was a space race; its possible the creation of the Space Colony served a similar role to the moon landing in our world.
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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by chaoadventures » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:34 pm

Ivo posted but I made an entire post so it's unrefined in that regard but whatever

---

tails we really don't have time

Let's see here.

Gerald's main, personal directive was "making people happy through the power of science" and was forced to build military equipment by the government.

Therefore, it can be assumed that Eggman and his other relatives went off the information that everything Gerald did was for good, sans any thing he may have sent down to Earth to his
relatives between the time he was told to work on equipment and the time he was arrested.

Eggman said that he wanted to be as great a scientist as his grandfather, but at this point I'd assume he meant that relative to his intelligence and scope of his research.

Furthermore, while the ARK had both Gerald's face on it and the Eclipse Cannon, Gerald's face wasn't unveiled until the cannon itself broke the rock concealing both of them.
Eggman's logo being put everywhere is most likely his own decision for more organized "branding" after Sonic 2. The Death Egg's general shape could be based on the pre-SA2 ARK though.

Eggman also does not generally seem to be against GUN for any personal reasons, just that they're the leading non-animal force in taking him down.

As far as the name Robotnik is concerned, I'm not going to completely discredit anything they could have planned for it, but this is the same series where there's a fast hedgehog named Sonic and a
punching Echidna called Knuckles, so I'm willing to chalk this up to SEGA's attempt to fix/incorporate the awkward localization attempt that named him Robotnik in the first place.

Then we have the zones near Eggman's bases. Well firstly Chemical Plant is the second level of Sonic 2 and the US manual says it's not his

Zones like Metropolis and Scrap Brain seem to be made to be merely his bases, while the other levels that aren't his seem to be much less useful.
Sure Eggman has a use for making zones like for Oil Ocean and Oil Desert, but what does he get from ones like Star Light and Stardust Speedway?
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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Ivogoji » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:06 pm

Continuing: It is possible GUN attacked the Space Colony because they feared, based on Gerald's nationality, that he was a communist sympathizer or otherwise a danger to the capitalist west.

But my observations point to the opposite conclusion- GUN perceived Gerald's privatization of space travel, medical, and weapons technology as a threat to their own international, state-sponsored military industry. His sin was being too capitalist, too independent, too outside anyone's control. Gerald had, effectively, built his own small independent nation when he created the ARK. A man like that could have set himself above the authority of any other political body...

In SA2 there's a tension between the President of the UF and GUN, as the former has enlisted Rouge to uncover what the latter has hidden about Project Shadow. I believe this tension is reflected in their relationship with the President of 50 years ago. As Rouge's report (I'll provide a link later) testifies, the President requested that Gerald create a process for immortallity, which Gerald only submitted to do so he could find a cure for Maria's illness. GUN was not aware of this project until an insider who had witnessed Shadow's creation informed them (Shadow the Hedgehog strongly implies this person was the boy who would grow up to be the present GUN Commander). From their point of view, Gerald had formed a conspiracy with the President behind the military's back; this triggered their overblown response.
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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Ivogoji » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:28 pm

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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Lamby » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:24 pm

the real question is eggman even evil compared to GUN special forces blowing holes in little girls and bringing down a borderline scientific marvel
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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by chaoadventures » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:12 pm

He made a plan to blow up Prison Island in 15 minutes and actually carried it out.

Prison Island itself also had large amounts of military equipment on it and most likely a good amount of people to take care of the equipment and the inmates

He also tried to bomb Station Square one time.
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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Lamby » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:16 pm

ivo was GUN operating mostly with robots or is it just video game limitations? i always wondered about that.
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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Ivogoji » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:36 pm

^There was a man piloting the FLYING DOG mecha Rouge fought in Security Hall, and realistically there had to be other personnel on the island, like the human soldiers shown apprehending Sonic after his own boss fight at the start of the game. So yes, Eggman is a mass murderer.

I read a fanfic once where the FLYING DOG pilot actually survived the explosion and identified Rouge as his attacker. This bit her in the ass, hard.
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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Triert » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:21 pm

Lamby wrote:the real question is eggman even evil compared to GUN special forces blowing holes in little girls and bringing down a borderline scientific marvel
When it all comes down to it Eggman has done a lot less evil things compared to what GUN must have been doing.

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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Ivogoji » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:34 pm

^I don't think anyone besides Eggman has been blowing up planets and enslaving alien races.

Continuing from my earlier post:
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As for Eggman's raison d'être, I suppose it depends on how you see his underlaying philosophy. Is he scientist first and foremost ("When I was a child, I looked up to my grandfather for all the great things he accomplished in his life. He was my hero, and I wanted to be a great scientist like him! ") or is science only a means to an end in fulfilling his political aspirations ("I must play this game by my rules, I will conquer the world with my tools. All my machines are built for destruction, I will build my empire!")? He is a complicated figure.

If we take the second view of his psychology, we might conclude that his actions are in retaliation for the injustice of the ARK incident- if he takes over the world he can make it a place where things like that don't happen. But if we took the first view, we might attribute his extremism to his scientific ambitions- if he takes over the world, nobody can tell him what not to experiment on.


I tend to view him as having a combination of those motivations. I've been writing a biography of Ivo's early days, trying to capture what I felt were the forces that shaped a man into becoming the Eggman. The things I've looked at most are what Eggman values, and what the culture he lives in seems to value. Eggman loves machines, obviously; but he seems to love space exploration technology most of all. He's surpassed his grandfather's achievements a thousand times over- created his own personal rocketships, space stations, chained planets together, moved worlds, harnessed black holes, made contact with alien life and put them to yoke. But these feats must have taken years, if not decades to realize, most of his life even. Eggman would necessarily be exploring space longer than he's known Sonic for instance.

But how would the world react to a one man interstellar civilization? He certainly can't have done all of this in secret. The stigma of being Gerald Robotnik's grandson would have followed Ivo from his youth up, but just as problematic would be the widespread distrust of his line of research. After the ARK disaster, people would have viewed privatised space travel with suspicion. A young Eggman would have faced serious opposition to his interest in carrying on Gerald's work. He would have to work alone, as no one would be party to his dangerous research. That was fine- he had his family's wealth to fund his projects and could build robot workers to handle the labor. But this isolation would render him very inner-directed, very self-centered. He would only heed the moral code he hewd out for himself.

The conflict between Eggman's ambitions and what the rest of the world considered acceptable would have embittered him to society. "My grandfather was a persecuted genius" he would say "now they persecute me as well". He would have viewed any opposition to his work as an obstacle to scientific progress, and defiance of that opposition as morally justified. It didn't matter if it came from GUN or someone else; in his egocentric world view, everyone was potentially his enemy. Over time his ambitions grew and so did the number of people he considered obstacles to his research. He needed the Chaos Emeralds, so he conquered South Island; its inhabitants had no right to object to his mission. One day he decided he needed the whole world.

That's my two cents anyway.
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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Triert » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:37 pm

I'll agree with you there even if I did forget the planet he blew up. (Did you mean the Moon?)

My take on Eggman and GUN is that Eggman is a cartoonish villain a lot of the times whereas GUN's actions are a lot more believable.

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Re: GUN turned Eggman evil

Post by Ivogoji » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:50 pm

In Sonic Battle he pointed the Final Egg Blaster at a cluster of stars and erased them from existence.

In Sonic Unleashed he physically blew the Earth to pieces.

His plan in Sonic Colors involved moving planets out of orbit and dragging them across the solar system. This would necessarily entail completely devastating the other planets surrounding those he selected, which would have been torn apart by tidal forces.

Eggman has destroyed MANY planets. He operates on a scale that completely dwarfs the actions of any other human being who has ever lived.
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NachoThePikachu wrote:I WILL BE AN ADMINISTRATOR, RULING OVER CHAO ISLAND
except it WON'T BE CHAO ISLAND ANYMORE
IT'LL BE BANANA ISLAnD

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