Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

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Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Triert » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:01 am

Well, I'm about flat out done with trying to be an activist over anything.

Might as well ask this place one last question, should we focus on equal rights for all? Or continue to mudsling between feminists and mens rights?

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by CasualCollision » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:21 am

Tumblr and feminism piss me off. They're way too frikkin' sensitive, and get their panties in a bunch over ANYTHING that's said over facebook that is bigoted. Spoiler alert: The bigoted and idiotic excrement that stands out on facebook is hardly common, contrary to how much attention and obvious counterarguments it undeservedly gets.

However, I will say that conservative politicians deserve to be shat on as much as possible, since they (UNFORTUNATELY) have more power than we do, and should be protested by ordinary people and "feminists" alike whenever they try to force religious laws against abortion and other minority-oppressing rights.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Bunelody » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:22 pm

^pretty much my thoughts.
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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Lamby » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:59 pm

@Triert: Egalitarianism is an enormous umbrella that covers social, religious, economic, and political issues. You might as well be asking "why don't we push human, economic and civil rights in general?" Most people already do. That is why they pursue inequalities that affect their peers. Egalitarianism isn't a platform, it is a philosophy, a way of governance and shaping public policy. To pursue that is too broad and unfocused to push specific issues or garner support. Everyone likes the idea of equality, but not everyone shares the same interests or is affected by the same inequalities, so I fail to see how lumping everything into one movement is practical. How do you decide whose and what issues are a priority? It is practical for getting along, sure, but as far as making change happen, I doubt it.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Drouge » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:06 am

Feminism is a men's movement too, for the record.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Triert » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:34 am

^ I'm well aware of that, but at the same time there are inequalities it doesn't address.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Gondi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:20 pm

I don't support feminists, but I do support women's rights activists.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by GraphiteAchasse » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:43 pm

Personally, I think we should focus on Egalitarianism over everything. Imagine what a nice world this would be? hmm? Mull it over.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Drouge » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:11 am

Gondi wrote:I don't support feminists, but I do support women's rights activists.
These words are synonymous.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Triert » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:35 am

Think of what most people consider to be feminists however, nothing but a lot of angry woman yelling at men.

Now think of what most feminists consider MRA's to be, nothing but a couple of fedora wearing weirdos on the internet.

Now they are indeed the same thing, it's just that people are so disillusioned with both that it helps to find a median between the two in hopes of moving forward. While it is a goal of feminism to create equality, modern feminism is overrun with misandry. Not to mention many among it who consider men to not have any reason to call for rights. Such as how men can't be raped, or sexually abused by woman. As well as the notion on how the media portrays us as pedophiles and rapists, despite the fact that a real patriarchy would never do such a thing. It especially wouldn't let female pedophiles walk off free, but even then people just seemed to have branched out into something that we can't call feminism anymore because it's let go of equal right.

Not to say MRA's are entirely without guilt, but they're coming from the above. Men don't like to be thought of as rapists anymore then woman like to be called sluts. Is that so wrong?

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by CasualCollision » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:56 am

Drouge wrote:
Gondi wrote:I don't support feminists, but I do support women's rights activists.
These words are synonymous.
Only on tumblr, my friend.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Nano » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:02 am

^
This is way too true I'm sorry

A feminist is someone who complains about the problems in the world and does nothing to fix it.

A women's right activist is someone who gets active and tries to fix this problem.
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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:28 am

I would argue that Feminist was originally synonymous with Women's Rights Activist or even Gender Egalitarian, but has been corrupted by Women Supremists and Misandrists to the point that just as many, if not more, view feminism in a negative light as those who understand its original meaning.

That said, while I identify as a General Egalitarian, I agree with Batty that one needs to narrow their focus if they hope to accomplish anything. Trying to address all issues of inequality simultaneously is only going to lead to one spreading themselves too thinly and getting nothing done as a result. I for one, chose to focus on issues of age discrimination as it is something that everyone falls victim to at somepoint in their life regardless of any other trait that is used for discrimination.
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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Lamby » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:22 pm

Triert wrote:Think of what most people consider to be feminists however, nothing but a lot of angry woman yelling at men.


Any remote knowledge of history or the movement would tell you pretty clearly it isn't true feminists are angry women. Unless reductio ad absurdum male feminists like me morphed into angry women. I don't think the feminist movement should appease people that refuse to acknowledge a clearly described platform that has nothing remotely indicative of misandry. People educated on the matter are not disillusioned.
Triert wrote:Such as how men can't be raped, or sexually abused by woman. As well as the notion on how the media portrays us as pedophiles and rapists, despite the fact that a real patriarchy would never do such a thing.
Female on male abuse is well documented. The claim is discredited because no one denies this happens and the information is readily available. It is simply ridiculous to say so when it's already been blatantly accepted abuse happens evenly between men and women through statistics. The media is a sprawling octopus of buzzwords and stereotypes. Media portraying men poorly is just one side effect of unsubstantiated journalism and sensational entertainment. Focusing on a symptom of the actual cause and trying to attribute to another is cherry picking.
Triert wrote:but even then people just seemed to have branched out into something that we can't call feminism anymore because it's let go of equal right.
Some people have. But the platform of major interest groups like NOW that actually push and fight legislation say otherwise.
Triert wrote:Now think of what most feminists consider MRA's to be
MRA isn't taken seriously by critics because it doesn't do a good job to substantiate its claims with quantifiable evidence or propose solutions to its claims. They have an image problem because they just come across as a counter-movement. This criticism isn't unique to feminists.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Triert » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:23 pm

I know full well that feminists aren't all that, let me rephrase myself if you could.

There are too many woman supremacists within feminism, MRA's takes good note of it and addresses it much more. Do you have any idea how much a false rape accusation can destroy a mans life all because of the hands of another woman? Who's supposed to watch out for us when the feminists that preach equalism don't do a thing to make sure their radical numbers are staying quiet.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Lamby » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:11 pm

A false accusation at all could ruin anyone's life. The men's right movement asserts 40-50% of rape cases may be false accusations, but again, it's all based on statistics and observational studies that record all cases classified as false by authorities, but do not give insight into which cases were wrongfully decided to be false or which cases the accusers redacted. It isn't a scientific study but a collection of data, which isn't enough to surmise a conclusion.

You don't have to be a feminist to wrongfully accuse someone either, so I don't understand why you're tying that to radical feminists or feminism at all. That is a red herring. That said, misandrists don't reflect our mainstream movement. Some modern feminists even argue that male liberation (freeing them from unfair stereotypes) is necessary to secure true equality. Even if feminists were mostly radical, radical feminists aren't the ones organized enough to lobby lawmakers. There is no need to look after you when you aren't legally threatened by their shouting, and there's no need to call radicals out when our platform does not include their views in the first place. Feminists nor radicals are barring you from advocating for the legal system to address injustices. But as far as I know MRAs have not proposed a comprehensive solution to that issue, just merely assert it's a problem and try to discredit the feminist movement for not addressing it or somehow influencing people in power (which feminists like bell hooks have already addressed). Please correct me if something has actually been proposed.

Just so we're clear, I am one of those feminists that understands male liberation is necessary, but what they need to be liberated from isn't feminism, it's masculism and chivalry that some women and some men both buy into that creates the perception women are infallible and men should know how to act, thus are more likely to be the aggressor or were too weak, that they need to be freed from.
Last edited by Lamby on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Corvo » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:16 pm

Equal rights is the entire meal.

Gender rights is one of the ingredients.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Gondi » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:53 am

Drouge wrote:
Gondi wrote:I don't support feminists, but I do support women's rights activists.
These words are synonymous.
That wasn't really meant to be taken literally, but I guess it was my fault for not making it clear.
What I was trying to say was that feminism has become less about making women equal and has become more about demonising men, and that I believe the term has become twisted because of that. So I think that the term for a person who just wants women to be treated equally to men should be women's rights activist.

For my non-cryptic opinion on the matter, I think that we should just have gender equality.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Drouge » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:52 am

I'm just going to go ahead and say that if your idea of what feminism is like comes from the news/your parents (since on this site that's the more likely source) you have to go and actually spend some time with feminists/look for them on places that aren't tumblr.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by wic. » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:34 pm

Feminists exist for a very important reason, because women truly aren't treated as equals. They still learn less money than a man would doing the same job, they have to put up with the objectification of them by the media, and people are trying/already have taken away their right to their own bodies. Feminists are fighting for rights they deserve to have, but are met with insults, like "feminazi".

MRA's just sound like a joke. Men already have more rights than women, why do we need more. I look at MRA's like I look at someone who says there should be a "White pride/history month". The answer is because white's aren't a minority group that have beaten down and told that they are less than what they are.

Also I truly don't want to hear the complaint that the media portrays men as "rapists/pedophiles". For two reasons:

1.) The media DOESN'T actually portray men as rapists/pedophiles, but the media does portray women as objects and sluts.

2.) I've never once been told I was a pedophile for being a man, but have been regularly told that I have been for being gay, bur that's a whole different topic.

I loathe the idea that men are treated poorly for being men, because it isn't true. Men, especially white men, are the best treated group of citizens in the U.S., and they shouldn't spend their time *****ing when there are actual groups of people out there who are truly repressed.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Triert » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:34 pm

You're how old again? Of course you're not treated like a pedophile, you're too young for anyone to call you one.

Can we at least drop the whole "who has more rights then the other" argument for a moment to discuss "what are problems we're facing?"

Namely, the fact that false rape accusations made against men can destroy their lives?

Yes, I know our bodies aren't policed by everyone else. But at least let me share a story of something that nearly cost me a job, and sent me to prison. One day at my job I was tasked with cleaning the bathrooms, but because I didn't knock on the womans restroom I was nearly about to lose everything. Note, I did not see a woman inside the toilet. I couldn't even step through the door, I didn't see anything, I made a simple mistake of not knocking which I realize is a mistake. But I was about to lose it all, I nearly cut my own neck with my keys to avoid trying to be punished.

But the woman tried very hard to push that I had seen her in the toilet, is that fair? I ask you, is that fair?

But no, obviously all of my rights as a man would protect me from jail and everything else? No, because I was being portrayed as a pervert by her for barely stepping inside the restroom itself I could have been ruined.

Also, white history month and straight pride is just as stupid to me as it is to you. But please, don't tell me that just because you have less rights then a man does automatically makes any argument I have or any grievance I have or any other agreeable person they bring up are rendered false.

Now, if you do want to call me a pervert for trying to clean the bathrooms. Go ahead, go right ****** ahead. Because you know what? I've had it with trying to reason with anyone, because all that happens is I'm immediately rendered false in any argument I might make. Of course, that's the point in arguing. But because I can't see to get through to anyone here that there are problems that both sides must realize and both must face if they ever wish to reach true equality.

Unlike everyone else who gets mad and locks their topic, I'll leave this one open for discussion. Batty, thank you for what you posted. I'll look into it.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by cinnamonstyx » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:07 am

i am sick of feminazis trying to take rap from us men. how dare they. things should be equal. they can have riot grrrl, and we can have rap. **** these gender politics, anti-white man agendas, and effeminate conversions of real culture.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Flame » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:31 pm

The reason people are deluded into believing that men are more likely to do things like touch a woman against her will, rape, or use domestic violence is, as far as I know, simply because women get more media coverage than men in regards to it. The US and the UK at the very least tend to cover women saying things like that more than men because of a few reasons, one of them being that feminism does have its grip on society. If people ignored a woman getting domestically abused by someone, feminists would be ALL OVER it. It would be labeled as misogyny and outrage would occur. But, when people ignore a man getting abused by a woman, from what I've seen (not much, I must admit; just going by own knowledge here) no-one even acts up or cares. Hell, that man is usually viewed as weak because he couldn't stand up to his partner. That leads me on to the point that men tend to not speak out during relationships where they get abused or raped because society will belittle them and make them out to be weak because of it.

Have to cut this short since I have to go out, unfortunately. Might continue it later, if I feel like it. No promises.

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Re: Should we focus on Egalitarianism over gender rights?

Post by Lamby » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:11 pm

^The media doesn't delude people. It merely presents a perspective. What deludes people is an inability to research using various sources and understand bias or fallacies. Some of this is due to lack of education, but most of it is a human tendency to accept information that supports what they already believe or suspected. A two second internet search would reveal female on male abuse is not ignored as the information is readily available. Neither the media nor feminism affects our ability to be aware of factual information.

Men aren't taken as seriously by the media or authorities because of masculism and chivalry that perpetuates the idea men are strong and a failure to be is weakness, and that women are infallible. Feminism opposes these two things because some of us feminists believe that male liberation is necessary as male stereotypes work against our goals just as they work against men.

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