USA Election 2016

[Goat]

Welcome to the 2016 Elections General topic, please head over to the echo chamber topic and consider the rules there being more or less applicable here.

Remember, only losers lose

[CFood]

At first I was wondering "Where is Michigan at?"

But these must be the states that have already done their voting. Will come back on like the 8th.

[Crazo3077]

I want Bernie Sanders to win, but the Democratic party apparently has set up a lot of hoops for the guy to hop through. Just look up Debbie Wasserman Schultz and you'll see why I feel betrayed for believing for even a moment that the corruption of the party system was due to Republican actions alone.

I also concede to the potential of Trump becoming president. Unless Rubio drops and Cruz tries to go against Trump full force, the race won't be even close. And unless the Democrats have Sanders, they're going to see Clinton lose to Trump. And I can only be so upset if Trump becomes president, because the more I understand about this country, the more I realize that Trump may not be the president we want, but he definitely is the president this country deserves.

[Nano]

Marco Rubio and Bernie Sanders were the best case scenario.

Now we have Trump and Clinton. At this point you're not voting for who will run the country the best, you're voting for the lesser of two evils.

Good luck everyone, have fun with either your racist bigot or emotionless robot.

[Lamby]

my thoughts:

Spoiler:

i hoped republicans in my state, virginia, delusional as conservatives are, at least had a shred of integrity and wouldn't choose a borderline fascist supported by literally the klu klux klan, low key racists, islamophobes, and other assorted bigots

guess not. i couldn't stop laughing when rubio tried invoking lincoln and writing revisionist history as if realignment never happened to counter trump as if his supporters are a minority that were never there. they've been slowly stirring that disenfranchised nativist/confederate at heart underbelly for half a century to win elections and now their frankenstein monsters are outta control.

my ideal candidate was sanders because he's the only candidate with the courage to push for much needed socialist policy shift. i'm farther left than sanders, might even call myself socialist full stop, but i know that he could have worked with centrists and possibly even people otherwise petrified of hearing "democratic socialism," something really benign, because corporate influence conditioned them to be

still remains to be seen but I have a feeling i'll be eating crow and voting for a moderate with dubious policy positions who claims she'll reign in the same people backing her over a bloviating, toxic "businessman" with dubious humanity, but at least with clinton maybe i won't have bills that corral and ban groups of people, ban me from public bathrooms, and whatever else he'll waffle on to indirectly pander to his base.

[retrolinkx]

Just remember guys, anyone from the outside of America supports Trump being it's honestly a massive joke to us.

So don't take them seriously.

[Goat]

I think I'll give my thoughts too

Spoiler:

How people could trust the idea of democratic socialism is beyond me, there's a point where you can't deny the damage such people who follow anything close to socialism have done to our world.

Europe is burning and anyone who doesn't tow the line is being demonized by the luegenpresse of the political parties. It could have been handled so much better, instead of leaving the door open they should have had people being truly screened. People who could prove they were syrian refugees, people who could show they were running from danger. That isn't who we got at all, Paris proved that ISIS went through on it's threats to invade. On a side note, a look at Venezuela further proves the point of the policies of socialism.

Tried every generation, and anyone who didn't die from it lives to hide it's faults.

I've only recently learned after a trip to peru with my family to see my family just how bad communists affected the country. People tell me all the time that they're different, I believe such things to be a flat out lie. Socialism is the start of communism and the first phase of converting to it. This has only hardened my stances against the left beyond what I already felt against them for the damage they've done here in the USA.

Policies of censorship, bullying of people who dare question them, doxxing, and this has only been from the useful idiots and the bottom of the bunch. I've gone through a lot of changes, but my vitriol against the same group hasn't changed. This is the election that will show them they have no power anymore, and the world will see it's mistakes and do well to learn from them.

Aside from that, i'm amazed people can even still support Hilary simply for her not being Trump. Despite Black, Hispanic, and even Muslim support for him we will never fail to hear how he's the racist one. Hilary is the one who fought against the civil rights movement, and people are desperate enough to vote the woman in the event Bernie fails.

Onto Trump however, his claims against the mexicans aren't entirely unfounded. The poor control of our border has allowed the worst of mexican society to enter, and by this I target the drug cartels and anyone supporting them here stateside. Their government is already corrupt, and the presidents who refuse to pay for the wall did nothing to stop them. It is cruel mercy in my opinion to deport the illegal mexicans, but our amnesty only makes mexico weaker.

Last I remember, haven't we been exploiting mexicans? Haven't we been the ones putting them in bad conditions? Why would we want them here if we're doing such things! On that case, why would we help them first when enough of us here are struggling as it is. The solution is there, but it's something we all have a hard time swallowing because we want to think the world can work as nicely as it does in fiction. It won't, and we can't lie to ourselves in the hopes that it will.

On muslims, I firmly hold my place when I say they remain a religion above all else. Islam I believe needs reform after looking at what they believe, what they have said and what they practice, if they were christians we would have dealt with them much sooner. The current plan to ban muslims from entering isn't a bad one when you have a terrorist state openly stating they will invade, have invaded, and already attacked once last year. The plan isn't even one that's meant to last forever.

But how can so many people, look at what the migrants in europe have done and still defend those specific people? I firmly believe that those people were the worst of their society's who ran to europe to take advantage of it. You don't need to be muslim to be a hateful bigot, but being one will have european women apologizing after being attacked. The concentrated effort to hide crime, sexual and violent, only further proves my point if anyone chose to pay attention to Cologne. They've targeted jews, they've gone after gays, and people are supposed to see them as these attackers for being offended at the sight of them? Europe in all of it's blind amnesty has created a rape culture out of the sheer amount of effort it wants to put into keeping a good appearance rather than take action and be accused of racism despite such accusations these days being overused and empty.

The tragedy of it all? Hardly any of these people were syrian refugees. The people europe should have supported weren't the ones they're supporting now. The massive push towards the right wing, towards nationalism, it's one countries like Poland and Hungary had to take because of how suicidal people around them have become. Hungary tried, and had the water bottles thrown right back at them with the people in the trains shouting how much they want to go to Germany.

[chaoadventures]

Ehhh? What's an election? Isn't that something old people do?

Yeah, I don't really care who wins, because I have no effect on it. So yeah. I'm gonna go now.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

@Goat: That rant is just plain out wrong on so many levels.

The militants within Islam are a tiny minority, likely less than one tenth of one percent of all muslims. Furthermore, the majority of Muslims, Sunnis and Shiites alike, are not fond of the bad rap they've gotten thanks to Isis.

Most migrants, whether assorted southwest Asians and North Africans flooding into Europe or Mexicans entering the Southern United States, are just trying to make the best of a bad situation and many face life-threatening risks as they make the trip before you take into consideration those killed by armed border patrols. Processing could definitely be improved, and actually given them a fair chance to enter through legal channels could probably go a long way towards improving the ratio of those who try legal channels to those that just run accross the border.

If recreational drugs were legal, the chances are good the cartels would either go legit or be forced out of business by the legal market. plus, nation-wide legalization could lead to domestic crops sufficient to meet domestic demand. Not to mention the tremendous savings from not having to enforce prohibition, the extra revenue from taxing the sell of drugs, and the fact that a legal market means regulations on the potency and purity of product, making the drugs safer for those who choose to partake.

You seem to be confusing socialism and communism with Totalitarianism. Newsflash: there are such things as capitalistic totalitarianism and libertarian communism. Also, if you you attended a public school, well, your education is the product of socialism, and as sorry as public schools are in some parts of the United States, we're still a hell of a lot better off with socialized education than the alternative of no one attending school unless they can afford a private education. Emergency services are also a product of socialism, as is any public service funded by the government. The government seldom spends taxpayer money wisely, and politicians often vote for what benefits their own interests rather than the common good, but can you honestly say you'd rather live in a country with no public(aka socialized) services whatsoever?

I could probably write an essay on each of these subjects, but I think this sums up the main points well enough.

@Foxboy: When hasn't choosing between a Democrat and a Republican been picking the lesser of two evils?

More on topic, I'll most likely vote Libertarian, Green, or Constitution, but if I had to vote for a major party candidate, Sanders would be my first choice among those still in the running and Trump would be my last choice.

That said, I'm not convinced it makes much difference who the next president is. Congress makes the laws and the most the President can do to control them is veto anything that more than half but less than two-thirds of congress wants.

[Lamby]

Policies of censorship, bullying of people who dare question them, doxxing, and this has only been from the useful idiots and the bottom of the bunch. I've gone through a lot of changes, but my vitriol against the same group hasn't changed. This is the election that will show them they have no power anymore, and the world will see it's mistakes and do well to learn from them.

at most it'd just proves to me for the hundredth time in human history a bigot manchild that appeals to other men and anyonechildren with paranoid delusions (this isn't implying you're a bigot) can get far elections if he squawks about doom long enough and that the DNC has outdated and undemocratic delegate rules, but um sure it could be a mandate if it makes you feel better

also yeah i'm with jeffrey there. i guess i'm more worried about things that actually effect the day to day than some secret culture war conspiracy between whatever people call it. if my economic and social ideas do nothing then they don't, but i know moving the USA even farther right definitely isn't solving anything. but since the left as you call it and centrists will likely sweep congress, americans love deadlock after all, sure bring on the klanidate or clinton.exe

[Crash32]

Can't stump the Trump, right Retro?

[Chaos the Light Chao]

That said, I'm not convinced it makes much difference who the next president is. Congress makes the laws and the most the President can do to control them is veto anything that more than half but less than two-thirds of congress wants.

Exactly. People get upset when presidents don't do what they say they're going to do during the election campaigns but that's because it's out of their hands by design. The more radical candidates Trump and Sanders will be no different if they get elected.

[Dr. Roivas]

The problem is we all think that once we vote in the next president then our job is done and America is saved. Which is, yknow, completely not true. If memory serves me well, our government is currently dominantly Conservative. And that's a huge part of the reason why Obama had a hard time getting things done, he was always blocked and shot down by our government. So our duty doesn't just end at "Woo yea my dudes in office now I'm just gonna sit down and wait for things to get better." You have to keep voting, you have to work to uproot the vile systems that keep us all down.

Also trump is a straight up fascist, Ted Cruz is the zodiac killer, and #FeelTheBern

[Nano]

That said, I'm not convinced it makes much difference who the next president is. Congress makes the laws and the most the President can do to control them is veto anything that more than half but less than two-thirds of congress wants.

Exactly. People get upset when presidents don't do what they say they're going to do during the election campaigns but that's because it's out of their hands by design. The more radical candidates Trump and Sanders will be no different if they get elected.

Presidents still interact with other countries, run federal jobs, and will be able to fill in that justice position.

Like, maybe their policies wouldn't make it too far (the "radical" ones, not the straight up bad ones that people will agree with regardless), but they'll still have quite the control over things outside of lawmaking.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

The president does indeed select Supreme Court Justices, but congress(or at least the senate) has to approve the appointment. Still, given that Justices serve for life, the choice of the next one might end up being the next president's longest lasting legacy. Then again, the Supreme Court often gets the credit its due, so if the next justice ends up doing something historical, few will probably remember which President appointed them.

Sadly, with the way congress is set-up, its members serve two terms before their re-election coincides with a Presidential election, and if I'm not mistaken about how congressional elections are staggered, only a third of senators and half of the house is up for re-election in any given Presidential year, and it's always the same half of the house. Making all terms 4 years and all seats up for re-election at the same time could go a long way towards ensuring no one gets re-elected simply because most people didn't no they were up for re-election. To make matters worse, almost any kind of electoral reform would need to be approved by the very people who benefit from the problems in the existing system. Might be able to get the house to sign-off on doubling the length of their terms, but how many senators would be willing to have their terms cut short?

[Goat]

Where do executive actions come into consideration?

That aside, if anyone is interested in idealogical subversion and psychological warfare that I've fully accepted a long time ago we're currently dealing with. Check out this video where Yuri Bezmenov, a KGB defector tells all.

[CFood]

I think it's worth noting, communism is a type of economy. Albeit one that the government is at the center of, but still, it's not a politic.

Communism combined with dictatorship or totalitarianism is a very bad thing. Not necessarily a bad thing for every ruler, but it can get easily abused by a dictator.

Communism mixed with a democracy or republic can be a very good thing. Especially with more laws and checks and balances in place to keep it from being abused.

Communism and socialism are the same thing. It's just everyone thinks of Stalin when you say communism, and seem to forget that it's an economy, not a politic, or they just never knew.

[Pufflehugs]

Memes Welcomed?

I think Daniel should be president, because he is back it it again with the white vans and he is the damn man for the job.

[Goat]

I will now convert people to Trump

- He'll throw Hilary in jail where she belongs.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

I don't have a high opinion of Hilary Clinton, or any politician that aligns themselves with a major political party, but what has she done to deserve jail time? Then again, I'm not convinced half of the US prison population deserves jail time, and in general, I think the US legal system is extremely heavy-handed, at least towards those who can't afford lawyers.

[Goat]

You have the following

Emails
Benghazi
Travelgate
Whitewater
Cattlegate
Filegate
Chinagate
Pardongate
Solictation of Funds recieved by Peter F. Paul
IRS Abuse against Republicans and other enemies
The Death of Vince Foster where Clinton Staffers removed evidence before police arrived
Clinton and friends deleting Email related information

Personally, I can't imagine why people would vote for her just to avoid having Trump in office. His tax plan and healthcare plan is great! Especially for people suffering from the monopolies on drugs.

[Nano]

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/Uploaded ... x-plan.pdf

This paper analyzes presidential candidate Donald Trump’s tax proposal. His plan would significantly reduce marginal tax rates on individuals and businesses, increase standard deduction amounts to nearly four times
current levels, and curtail many tax expenditures. His proposal would cut taxes at all income levels, although
the largest benefits, in dollar and percentage terms, would go to the highest-income households. The plan
would reduce federal revenues by $9.5 trillion over its first decade before accounting for added interest
costs or considering macroeconomic feedback effects. The plan would improve incentives to work, save, and
invest. However, unless it is accompanied by very large spending cuts, it could increase the national debt by
nearly 80 percent of gross domestic product by 2036, offsetting some or all of the incentive effects of the
tax cuts.

What a good tax plan. Toss our country into even more debt, lessen taxes on the rich, and just hope we get more money somehow.

Trump’s plan largely follows standard Republican ideas, except for the area of prescription drugs, where he has taken positions more common with Democrats.
First, the plan emphasizes that ObamaCare will be fully repealed, including the mandate for everyone to have coverage, an issue that has sparked criticism against Trump.

Trump’s main ideas for a replacement are to allow health insurance to be sold across state lines and permit people to make tax-free contributions to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). HSAs are paired with a high deductible health insurance plan and are intended to make people more conscious of how they spend health dollars and reduce costs.

Both are standard Republican healthcare ideas. Experts say that both ideas are more in the realm of dealing with healthcare costs and would not do much to expand coverage for the people who would be losing it with the repeal of ObamaCare.

Oh even better, more tax cuts and less coverage for Americans. Very nice plan.

Nah, overall Trump is pretty garbage candidate. His plans are pathetic and unrealistic, his attitude is racist towards everyone in the world he'll be forced to interact with if he takes office, almost all the GOP hates him and realizes that if he wins, the GOP will be dead.

Trump is not good, he is not great, he is trash. He is Drumpf. There are no redeemable qualities about Trump that aren't already in the other candidates, people who would do 10x a better job running the country than trump. Clinton is clearly the better choice, despite still being a horrible choice.

Sanders is loved by the American people. He has the most electability out of anyone. He's leading Clinton in popularity, he's leading all the republicans, and he's overall what America wants. Clinton is just being supported by tons of businesses and the party itself because Sanders is going to try and actually fix America and nobody but the people really want that.

It's crazy how anyone at all can defend Trump in any regard. He's an awful human being, and an even worse business man. Paul Ryan, Mitt Romney, and nearly 30 more people are denouncing him. The dude was endorsed by KKK members and when called out on it doesn't even say he doesn't want the votes. Nah nah, he has to "look into it". He has to look into the KKK. The dude doesn't even have a basic grasp of history.

OH YEAH, forgot to mention how he advocated for a war crime against ISIS by killing all their family members. That's the equivalent to saying "yeah sure, i can solve the problem. just drop a few nukes on them lol."

Congress wouldn't let him of course, but are you REALLY sure you want to elect a dude who would do this if he could???

So really, Trump is not a good choice if it comes down to Clinton vs Trump. If you really REALLY think that he would provide any stability at all to the nation, you're just fooling yourself at this point.

[Goat]

He is Drumpf

Drumpf was an angelicized name his grandfather took to avoid anti-german sentiments during world war one.

Edit: I want to say more but it's too early to call it. I'll definitely say more in the coming months should the situation change.

[Lamby]

according to trump you're supposed to be proud of your heritage, plus if trump was president then, i'm sure he would have banned his own grandfather until german americans were properly "vetted." because there is about as much logic there as banning muslim people

cfood, while i appreciate you actually are educated enough to understand that a democratic reconciliation with the core ideas can be helpful, but please don't say communism is socialism, it only validates paranoid crackpots (you're still basically right though)

fyi to anyone the key difference is this:

Spoiler:

this is like a simplified version as i see it

communism sees itself as an end to capitalism where socialism is defined as a necessary transition stage between the two stages. as soon as the working class is able, they are to totally upend the ruling capitalist class, which essentially means "people using capitalism to get ahead of everyone else" and their "dictatorship" with the will of the "working class" which basically means to erect a new state apparatus that must totally suppress and eradicate any capitalist uprising or influence with arms and disposing of all concept of owning private property to ensure class doesn't exist. how is this done? everything becomes property of the state, and you work because you want to for the state, because communists believe in order to meet "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" first you must acquire "abundance of goods" which is that concept of the state synthesizing abundance with enforcing this order. you can probably see how something like this could easily be hijacked by totalitarians and quickly lose its original goal, which was to transition society into one where economic injustice and inequality isn't even relevant. it's drawbacks are communism isn't interested in social injustices or things on a micro level because it assumes these problems are all rooted in failures of capitalism. also there isn't necessarily a safety net, and the sick and disabled become kinks in the cog, and if "the state" amounts to someone like stalin well. to be fair though, communism was envisioned at a time when leaders didn't just do a lousy job, they were so hands off that you might as not even had a government, and social darwinism was the justification the rich spat you, so it's understandable that marx didn't really forsee abuse considering nothing could be worse. he didn't even really outline what communism would look like anyway and communism may be one endgame, but it's really a collection of varying methods of removing class, some more authoritarian than others.

now what if you decoupled socialism from communism because you reject relinquishing property and believe you don't need to change the government structure because you see socialism as a tool to make society better?

socialism doesn't eliminate private private property--as in private property individuals own. it eliminates private property as a means of production. which means less "property" goes to few and more to the many so they can acquire even more. the property that is profits to business is reinvested into the workers to be able to acquire more property whether its public projects or a better guaranteed standard of living. to put this into today's terms, this is redistribution of wealth. usa already does this to some degree. taxes, welfare, medicaid, roads, public services ... they have one thing in common: they are socialist concepts. for people to say they don't want or trust socialism implies they reject the few advancements the USA has made in the last 70 years. the best way to reject it to maroon themselves on an island where maybe they'll live a robust life free of ... whatever flimsy baloney people think "the left" oppresses them with. socialism can work just fine as a pragmatic and democratic, all it is is valuing your quality of life over profits and the wealthy. socialism doesn't need to be some political revolution that radically changes countries, on it's own it's a pool of ideas you can test and use pragmatically so long as you also maintain democracy. to americans it only seems radical because we've had a center-right/right country feeding us the same talking points for three generations now. like remotely talking about fairly, to me, centrist concepts like an adjusted minimum wage, single payer healthcare, raising taxes to pay for things, etc. is met with "well they're radical liberals, they're extreme, they're communists" so it's really no wonder people have no idea what they're talking about

now let's be a little more specific. we live in a time where economics are not the only thing fracturing society, usa "democracy" is borderline oligarchy and so socialism cannot just be restricted to amending wealth inequality. maintaining democracy is just understood because without it socialism is meaningless, so we arrive at democratic socialism where socialism and democracy fuel each other and are applied to each other because unfettered capitalism is unjust and undemocratic and socialism does not need the flimsy communist endgame to do its job. we can also apply socialism's attitude to civil rights, by taking social power from those oppressing others to expand the rights of others. and that is hardly socialism, only social contract, one of the ideas that ignited the american revolution. all people like me want is just a little push toward socialist reform to and polls show more and more people wanting what FDR pushed for in his second bill of rights idea and that early 1900s progressives could only dream of. but what we're faced with are right wing populists and corporate influence--like trump--desperate to protect their interests and resisting while time slowly drags them away kicking and screaming

but what has she done to deserve jail time?

nothing that isn't republican vs. democrat melodrama, smear campaigns, and desperation. her biggest flaw is just a symptom of money corruption in politics and a dubious record, which isn't ideal but at least people at her rallies don't beat people up, call them slurs, and she might not rock the status quo, but at least we won't have a dangerous, vile, racist imbecile who denies evidence right in front of his face he himself said for an executive

His tax plan and healthcare plan is great!

sure is if you're a healthy, wealthy white guy or a corporate titan or ben carson or don't understand economics--there is a reason sanders has 10 leading economists that approve his economic plan and trump has the kkk, christie, and is an awful businessman no one likes

if you're a disabled, transgender woman like me or a just the average person even, there is nothing about private insurance and regressive taxes and taxcuts that help

fox also thank you for that, i was looking at his plan yesterday and besides what his campaign likely googled as "conservative healthcare" it was astounding.

[Goat]

according to trump you're supposed to be proud of your heritage, plus if trump was president then, i'm sure he would have banned his own grandfather until german americans were properly "vetted." because there is about as much logic there as banning muslim people

At least this managed to help me understand why we were calling him Drumpf.

cfood, while i appreciate you actually are educated enough to understand that a democratic reconciliation with the core ideas can be helpful ... please stop saying communism is socialism, it only validates paranoid crackpots

I believe cfood is doing the right thing in calling communism and socialism what they are. How else do you explain the rampant german censorship by Merkel who grew up in east germany.

republican vs. democrat melodrama, smear campaigns, and desperation

but at least we won't have a dangerous, vile, racist imbecile for an executive

I suggest people google who Hilary Clinton worked for during the civil rights era, and what demographic of people she called "Super Predators". On top of each and every single reason she should be arrested over.

if you're a disabled, transgender woman like me or a just the average person even

I'm not transgender, but I am disabled and hispanic. If you'd like we can talk economics privately