Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS

[EvilPinkamina]

Fox and Falco got nerfed though. You can no longer short hop laser cancel, so it favors them much less now. Not to mention there's still air you can jump in, and short hopping is still a thing in the game.

[Triert]

Now how many other ranged fighters can the stage favor?

[EvilPinkamina]

Not many. Despite what most people thing, final destination isn't all that projectile or ranged favored. The air is also a main part of the battlefield.

[Rajikaru]

That's because it really was meant to favor Fox, ranged characters have freedom to shoot without any hinderance.

Stop spreading these god damn stupid assumptions. Amazingly, Fox and Falco aren't ranged characters in any way! They're some of the best playable characters because of how fast they are and how much damage they can put out, their projectiles are literally ****** nerf guns they do so little damage, the guns are only good for chip damage.

[Triert]

I say Fox because Falco's gun can't rack up damage as quickly.

[Rajikaru]

Same applies to Falco. They are in no way projectile characters and Final Destination doesn't even give an advantage to actual projectile characters like Ness or Link because enemies are still easily able to sideroll/dodge or even just walk across the entirety of the stage before any major damage can be done to them.

[Tobi]

I think what Triert means is that stages that angle up will block projectiles, whereas stages that angle down will mean you will overshoot them.

[Rajikaru]

I'm pretty sure that's not what he means at all since most legal stages besides Final Destination such as Battlefield don't have that problem either.

[Tobi]

As well as having things blocking your way of course. Battlefield would still hinder more than Final destination because of there being more platforms you can stay on higher up. For some projectiles, they might be more favorable I suppose, like Yoshi's eggs and Ness' PK flash.

Final destination is still a flat fighting area, nothing else, and will hinder the least in projectile/shooting/range attacks which apparently is a hard concept to grasp?

[Rajikaru]

Except if you rely so much on projectiles that you have the advantage on final destination, you're probably playing wrong and will be defeated.

[Tobi]

Just before you were defending the Village of it's ability to chip damage, as well as stating Fox's gun can be used for chip damage. I'd say relying on some chip damage from a gun is good if the character manages to, even with a projectile weapon you say he shouldn't rely on, get into high top rankings and not really drop down too much from those rankings even when it's not because of the weapon, it still means something more than not anything at all. Wouldn't the gun be considered a waste of attack space, meaning Fox got lower in tier lists due to lack of potential? If projectiles are useless, might as well consider his reflector a waste of attack space as well.

[EvilPinkamina]

First of all, no one is saying projectiles are useless. But they're not a crutch. If you rely on projectiles alone to win you the game, then you're playing wrong (or you're playing villager, which it seems everything is a goddamn projectile). That's all that's being said.

[Rajikaru]

It's funny, his Reflector is considered good because it's used as an attack and NOT as a projectile reflector.

Also, their tier placements have nothing to do with their projectiles, as I've said. They're high-tier because they have good combos, can deal fair damage, are fast, have good special moves and recovery, have good launching attacks, and have good range thanks to their projectiles and speed.

[Tobi]

If you rely on projectiles alone to win you the game, then you're playing wrong (or you're playing villager, which it seems everything is a goddamn projectile). That's all that's being said.

What about Megaman though. Sure, his melee moves are pretty good as well, but nearly all his moves are projectiles. 3/4th of his specials are, hell, even his neutral attack move is one!

[EvilPinkamina]

Most of his projectiles have backfires though. crash bomber and metal blade both can be used against mega, and leaf shield is eh.

[Tobi]

Yeah I haven't really found much of a point in any of his special moves, other than up of course, for recovery. It's nice to see they throw in his diversity from all the powers he obtains throughout the games, but they just don't seem good enough.

[Rajikaru]

If you rely on projectiles alone to win you the game, then you're playing wrong (or you're playing villager, which it seems everything is a goddamn projectile). That's all that's being said.

What about Megaman though. Sure, his melee moves are pretty good as well, but nearly all his moves are projectiles. 3/4th of his specials are, hell, even his neutral attack move is one!

Naming arbitrary projectile characters won't do anything to sway my opinion. Ness, Link, Olimar, Villager, Megaman, Wii Fit Trainer, Toon Link (subjective), Bowser Jr, ROB, Duck Hunt Jr., Zelda, the list goes on.

However, very little of them have been in anything above A tiers before, and until I see the top tier for Sm4sh contain only any of those characters, I'll stand by what I said: FD does not affect balance in favor of projectile users.

Also, how viable a Special is (bar a select few, such as Ness's PK Flash) is determined by how viable you make them. Mega man's specials are good for fighting at range and can be spammed in unison to force pressure on enemies far away. His Down-B is considered useless by literally everybody though.

[Triert]

Trusting a tier list this early is worse imo, who's to say honestly? Even lil mac swerves between upper C's to dead last.

[KeatonLabs]

^ his leaf sheild can be used for a damage combo with a grab, but its not enough to really account for much more than chip damage.

[EvilPinkamina]

Trusting a tier list this early is worse imo, who's to say honestly? Even lil mac swerves between upper C's to dead last.

Upper C's to last? More like SS to C. That dude is either broken by design or mediocre at best, depending on the matchup and the amount of NaCl attributed to the character. Sodium Chloride has a way of skewing information.

[Rajikaru]

Honestly, Little Mac is the definiton of a skillgate character: lots of new guys use him because of how effective he can be with little effort, but he isn't good at anything other than an easy character for new players. He's low-tier at best, and it helps that he's completely ****ed if you're anywhere near the edge of the map.

And I don't rely on tier lists, there haven't been any that I've looked at since I started playing Brawl back in '11, I rely on gameplay smarts: as it stands, Bowser, Mario, Shiek, ZSS, maybe Falco, and Lucina are all likely high-tier characters, while Little Mac is poised to be on the bottom.

[KeatonLabs]

http://www.twitch.tv/brainscratchcomms

[Crash32]

I'm actually suprised that Zero Suit Samus is a fantastic character, I've actually got higher scores in most modes with her than with my Brawl mains. I really didn't expect it, considering she was mostly useless in Brawl...

Also, what's up with the Master Core, I just did a classic play through as Link (setting at 6.5 I think), and he randomly replaces Crazy Hand. Still easy to beat at a setting of 7 or lower.

[Tobi]

@Nova: If you ignore tier lists theres no point in peojectile characters proving anything to you when they get in high tiers.

Also, I love little mac, but his recovery is awful. Plain awful.

[Rajikaru]

You misunderstood.

I don't rely on tier lists currently. Because that would be stupid. The game hasn't been out long enough to develop any actual tier lists.

Now please stop trying to do whatever by telling me all this stupid crap about projectile characters.