The SA AutoDemo Chao Garden

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swooble
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The SA AutoDemo Chao Garden

Post by swooble » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:39 am

Has it been fully explored? There is a bit here: https://tcrf.net/Proto:Sonic_Adventure_ ... oDemo#Chao The build has also been mined by various people, but like usual the Chao portion is neglected. AFAIK the most that has been done is the audio and the models for some prototype gardens were ripped. The Windy Valley one is included. I spoke to one of the hackers and he said no one really understands the Chao stuff. There is probably a big amount of history buried in there, I'm too inept to do it myself.

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Re: The SA AutoDemo Chao Garden

Post by chaoadventures » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:16 am

From what I know the chao hacking scene is almost the opposite of the Adventure game hacking scene.

Most of the Adventure game people focus on SADX (specifically the 2004 port), while most of the chao hacking uses SA2B (Steam).
Additionally, the chao system is considerably different in SA1DC from the other games (including SA2DC) so a large amount of our knowledge of SADX goes out the window.

As it stands, I don't think anyone currently knows very much about SA1DC's chao datawise. I think most of it's been a bunch of black boxing for info and one editor that's at least 15 years old.

So in short, I'm pretty sure the chao and their surrounding in the Demo are extremely explored and undocumented.
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Re: The SA AutoDemo Chao Garden

Post by swooble » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:00 am

I'd like to collect as much as I can on the development of Chao content in their respective games. Afterwards writing articles on it would be the goal, when I'd do it I have no clue. There is a moderate amount that needs to be organized and get better pics/video of. Digging around this forum I've encountered some new (to me) content, and there is a lot about the kindergarden in The Cutting Room Floor.

"Additionally, the chao system is considerably different in SA1DC from the other games (including SA2DC) so a large amount of our knowledge of SADX goes out the window."
What do you mean by this? Are you talking about the coding itself or the gameplay? If it's the gameplay Chao Island has looked into SADC's Chao Garden a decent amount, I think. Judging by the categories here http://chao.hippotank.com/sa/ it seems similar to the SA2B system and all the usual Chao morphs are there but restricted to neutral. Google image searching shows that ones like the Nights Chao have uglier horns. Would it be incorrect to say final SADC's Chao data has also been ignored in beta hunting? I've lurked Sonic Retro for close to a decade and our favorite light blue ******** aren't mentioned often lol.

Sigh, I wish I could spur someone to look into the AutoDemo for Chao goodness. Not one of my PCs can emulate it decently so I can't even do the easy stuff. It could take a decade for someone to come around to doing it lol, no joke. Prototype game stuff has been a hobby of mine for long. Maybe by then we will find an early version of SA or SA2 where any schmo can go into the gardens and gaze at a glorious prototype Chao world rife with beautiful forbidden features Sonic Team didn't want us to see. HNNNG

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Re: The SA AutoDemo Chao Garden

Post by chaoadventures » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:08 am

Both. Codewise, attempting to transfer chao from SA1DC to SA2DC causes... monstrosities that I remember seeing pictures of. (there's some details at the bottom of this page though)

Otherwise, at face value, yes the system in SA1DC is just like SADX and SA2B. Deeper in, there's stuff that either is just nonexistent (like grades), or almost completely untouched and we don't any pictures of
(like mixed chao breeds).

There's also less people in general that go here that both,

A) Have a Dreamcast.

B) Try to dig into the depths of the mechanics.

Problem "A" seems to be the biggest one.

We can't use emulators because the emulators for VMUs (the only way to check a chao's stats and some other things) appear to only be compatible with operating systems pretty much from
the same era as the Dreamcast itself.

And then there's Elysian VMU. ...Which I don't think is finished or released yet.

Attempting to mine data (I think that's the right term for this) from the outside by using Cheat Engine on emulators like NullDC to track altering values is also said to give inconsistent results.

As for the status of the beta data within the final, I can't think of any topic here that's said anything about what's contained in there. SA2 most definitely has some though.

And are you sure your computers can't emulate the AutoDemo (which apparently doesn't run correctly on emulators anyways)?
I had a really slow computer that could barely handle the official PC version of SA2 but ran the DC versions just fine, surprisingly.

If it doesn't take a bunch of set up to play (doesn't need a boot disk), there's a way to disable Demo mode (I think they disabled it in Sonic Retro thread on it, but I can't find it so...?), and it runs on my physical NTSC-U Dreamcast then I'd give it a look myself.
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Re: The SA AutoDemo Chao Garden

Post by JmTsHaW » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:37 am

Hi, I've done a moderate amount of research on the AutoDemo Chao system (I wrote most of the tcrf stuff for it in fact) and I still have no idea how it works.

You have to manually enable the controls, which you can do by setting a 2-byte array at 2C170098 (in Demul) to 1 1 (I don't recommend NullDC for the AutoDemo because it doesn't have savestates and the and the demo crashes a lot, meaning you'll have to sit through the unskippable intro movie a whole bunch of times)

Chao spawn in set positions and they'll sit still until you go close enough for them to notice you, at which point they'll start running up to you. They don't really know when they've hit you, so they keep running into you even if they reach you. If you hit them, they'll start walking away from you instead but this doesn't happen 100% of the time. Oh, and they make a "Chao Chao!" sound too.

They weirdly slide across the ground if you throw them, but I'm not sure if that's just general throwing behaviour.
The holding mechanics aren't fully implemented in the AutoDemo. Tails and Amy can't pick a Chao down without throwing them and Gamma can't pick up any Chao at all. The characters also have a hard time choosing a target to pick up and the Chao slide across the floor when thrown.
The chao don't interact with water in any way. If you put them in the pool, they'll just walk around underwater.

The evolution system isn't implemented. The most you get are exaggerated versions of the child evolution "morphing" where they resemble their adult counterparts. "evolutions" in the autodemo have 3 phases I think, but they're hard to keep track of because the animals are really weird in this version - they don't match their attributes. I think the order is around this:
Lion - Run 2
Rabbit - Fly 3
Deer - Fly 2
Mole - Run 3
Kangaroo - Run 3
Gorilla - Run 3
Penguin - Swim?
Elephant - Run 2

The Egg Carrier garden is the ripped chunk of Windy Valley 3 that was shown off in early videos and the Mystic Ruins one is an early model, but neither can load in the AutoDemo.

The version of the Chao Garden in the AutoDemo appears to be the same one that was shown off in screenshots from the japanese website:
http://sonic.sega.jp/sonicadv/chao/chao1102.html

These images are a bit old now but I took some screenshots when I was looking at the garden too:
http://imgur.com/a/p8CZn

And there's also a video I did on the thing here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6OUh9JGDf0

Internally, the Chao don't seem to have the same sets of data used by the final game. I think I've come across something where the data's been written, but it doesn't actually affect anything. I couldn't find the values responsible for animal parts or morphing their evolutions either.

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